16 comments

  • bronco21016 16 hours ago
    Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station.

    GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that you can't have too many backups to critical items... unless you let the accountants and bureaucrats run the show.

    • mzi 9 minutes ago
      A bunch of us old salty sailing nerds were actually discussing Decca Navigator System¹ the other day that was still very present in the 90s on the ships we were sailing. Now all replaced and removed.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decca_Navigator_System

    • buildsjets 16 hours ago
      VOR is extremely short range and requires an extraordinary number of transmitters to provide any volume of coverage. Additionally it cannot provide coverage over oceanic areas. We USED TO have a nearly global long-range land based navigation system called LORAN, which only required one master station and a few remote stations to provide continent-scale coverage. But it was decommissioned in a cost savings move after it was determined that it could be replaced by GPS. It worked perfectly fine until it was decommissioned in 2010, not that long ago.

      In the '90s I used to fly light aircraft back and forth between Seattle and Alaska. You were frequently out of range of any VOR transmitters, but that LORAN always worked. NDBs? That didn't work so great for Ron Brown.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C

      • mschuster91 15 hours ago
        > Additionally it cannot provide coverage over oceanic areas.

        It's really hard to jam oceanic areas though, you need a vessel capable of sustaining human life autonomously at least for days plus dealing with the high seas.

        Buoys could theoretically be used for that purpose, yes, but good luck getting them stationary enough. Maybe some of the secret services could pull off such a trick but at least no ordinary civilian.

        • _moof 15 hours ago
          > sustaining human life

          Not really. Drone ships are very much a thing these days.

          • vanviegen 5 hours ago
            How can a drone ship hold its designated position while it's blocking gps?
            • K0balt 19 minutes ago
              By stopping jamming for a few seconds every few hours , and navigating using dead reckoning in between? With just a compass, a log, and a watch I can sail for days and end up within two kilometers of my destination.
            • tisizi 4 hours ago
              Shouldn't it be possible for you to reconstruct the original GPS signal if you can control the jamming pattern?
              • aeonik 2 minutes ago
                Eh, I doubt it, GPS signal is so weak, once the EM field in the air has so much power, I think the literal hardware ADC of any receiver would be overwhelmed/clipped with a high power jammer nearby. I mean it's possible that the front end will be literally fried, not just clipping the analog front end. GPS is usually -130dBM, it's absurdly weak.

                But in theory you're not wrong.

            • egberts1 1 hour ago
              Electro-mechanical gyroscope
            • ludston 2 hours ago
              Probably just turn off the jammer for 2 seconds
            • waste_monk 2 hours ago
              Anchor? ;)
            • AdamN 3 hours ago
              accelerometers can do that job. Also it can stop the jamming every once in a while to check.
            • Intermernet 5 hours ago
              Astral navigation is probably accurate enough
              • K0balt 16 minutes ago
                Dead reckoning with a minute or two to get a gps fix with the jammer off once a day.
      • verelo 16 hours ago
        On VOR: It's also a PITA to use, and for inexperienced people, or someone who rarely uses it, they can confuse flying towards and away from the station.
        • buildsjets 15 hours ago
          If you are a general aviation goober like me, flying a 1960's propeller airplane, sure, that is true.

          However, in a modern commercial aircraft, all position sources including VOR-DMEs, GPS, and IRS are cross-compared by the flight management system and turned into a latitude, longitude, and circular error of probability. There is no TO/FROM flag to worry about in a 777, and no reverse sensing on the back side of a localizer approach.

          • verelo 14 hours ago
            Yeah that makes sense. My experience is mostly in 70s to early 90's prop planes, I have had the opportunity to use a glass cockpit a few times and it was much easier. I guess i did the typical thing and contextualized this on my experiences and ignored that 99.9% of flights are not GA haha.
        • _moof 14 hours ago
          Time was, if you didn't understand how to use VORs, you couldn't really fly. We used them as primary en route nav, as well as for approaches, for many decades. As a CFI I think most of the confusion around VORs these days comes down to poor or inadequate training.
          • verelo 14 hours ago
            That's fair. I replied to someone else with a similar remark, but essentially doing most of my flying in 70s to 90s prop planes, I imagine the tools I'm most used to are just dated. Your point around training is likely very accurate, I had some great teachers but I also had a few instances of being given inaccurate information and having to teach the teacher so to speak.
            • Charon77 9 hours ago
              I don't fly and I wouldn't call my self someone that plays a lot of flight simulator. But I do enjoy navigation methods and I did learn the basics and practices of VOR navigation. I got an Android app that simulates flying courses, holding patterns etc, but only the navigation part. I would say I learned some intuition to it.
    • m463 10 hours ago
      maybe we need to update those giant concrete arrows on the ground...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcontinental_Airway_System

      and have giant concrete QR codes

    • torginus 5 hours ago
      What about terrain following? I would guess decent topographical maps of the world aren't that hard to come by today, to get a good idea of where you are.

      Although that approach depends on you being able to see the ground neither of which is guaranteed over a body of water or in poor visibility.

      • KeplerBoy 4 hours ago
        Entirely possible and poor visibility is not an issue if you have radar.
      • atoav 4 hours ago
        My guess would be that the best solution is multi sensorial anyways. So you have GPS, but then you would have an Inertial Measurement Unit, based purely on acceleration and inertia, radar and barometric systems and maybe optical systems for terrain identification and celestial navigation.

        I have recently heard an episode of Amp Hour podcast¹ where they talked about using Bluetooth from satellites as a GPS replacement for asset tags. So maybe alternatives to GPS on different bands are on the verge.

        Another interesting idea would be to have an antenna array on the plane that captures different radio sources and the angles from which they seem to come from and create a always updating radio activity map that maps a certain "radio landscape" to a position on the planet. AFAIK this is currently being worked on as well under the name "radio-SLAM" (with SLAM standing for Simultaneous Localization and Mapping). This means, jammers could maybe even be used as potential beacons themselves.

        ¹: The episode in question: https://theamphour.com/728-space-age-bluetooth-with-alex-har...

    • sokoloff 15 hours ago
      All VORs provide a radial that you’re on. Not all provide a distance to the station. VOR/DME or VORTACs provide both. Plain VORs do not.

      As more and more are decommissioned, the percentage that support distance-measuring goes up, as the ones being decommissioned are more likely to be the less-useful ones, which are less likely to have supported DME in the first place. So most remaining ones support both, but it’s not assured without checking.

      • flewbee 7 hours ago
        By taking a bearing from TWO VORs simultaneously, the distance to each can be computed. That's why planes have two VOR receivers and instruments.
    • jshier 16 hours ago
      Seems like we'd need a modern version that's less susceptible to jamming, otherwise aren't we just replacing one jammable service with another?
      • michaelt 15 hours ago
        There are two types of GPS jamming.

        There's GPS jamming by the military, mostly in war zones. This seldom effects airliners because they steer clear of active war zones.

        Then there's GPS jamming by delivery drivers who don't want their boss watching over their shoulder all the time. When the article mentions jammers as small as a cellphone and costing less than $100, those are sold to drivers.

        Delivery drivers don't jam LORAN or VOR, though - so it's not jammed by the second type.

        • torginus 4 hours ago
          Antenna tech has moved way beyond what was possible in the days GPS was invented. Planar arrays and MIMO are ubiquitous and cheap.

          These antennas have a very good idea of where the signal is coming from, due to delay measurements and can detect and filter ambient noise. They are super hard to jam. The reason why drones have become such a PITA is that these inexpensive antennas are very hard to defeat even with military jammers.

          If this becomes a geniune need in the civilian sector, then I'm sure the tech is up to the challenge.

          • minetest2048 3 hours ago
            The tech is already there, but the reason those antenna are not widely used is that they used to fall under ITAR, so no US companies want to touch those for civilian uses. Of course Turkey and China is not US so they don't give a damn about ITAR compliance, and so you can buy those anti jam antennas out of alibaba.

            Brad Parkinson, the father of GPS and PNTAB, they've been trying to lobby the US government to remove ITAR from that technology so the civilian can benefit from anti jamming, and finally they managed to do it sometime last year. Now it falls under EAR

            • torginus 33 minutes ago
              There's also a bunch of Western stuff you can buy off the shelves. MIMO tech is standard in every Wifi 5+ router, Cars have pretty sophisticated electronically steered radars nowadays, boats even more so. 5G towers also have phased array antennas. This tech is everywhere in consumer or industrial stuff.

              Not sure what makes an antenna/sensor ITAR restricted, I suspect if you try optimizing it to military use-cases, you'll get hit with ITAR, but I suspect Brad Parkinson is right - security through obscurity just doesn't cut it any more.

              I remember in the 90s, computer security was either missing or an afterthought (you could bypass the Win98 password prompt by pressing escape in the release version). Thankfully the industry got together and figured it out.

              Now everyone else needs to follow suit. We already have a bunch of examples of assuming security does not matter (hackable cars, meters that can be switched with a Flipper zero).

        • matheusmoreira 5 hours ago
          > boss watching over their shoulder all the time

          Sounds like the root cause to me. It should be illegal to use GNSS to track employees, or anyone really.

          Jamming is starting to sound a lot like self-defense against surveillance.

          • DeepSeaTortoise 4 hours ago
            IMO tracking is just way too useful. You know when things are about to arrive (so you dont miss a parcel because you went to the toilet or you can even intercept your driver once he's in the area, removing most of the last-mile problem), routes can be changed on the fly (e.g. for on-demand public transport pickup, trunking or delay mitigation) or, well, you can track your vehicles, allowing you to find them quickly in case of theft, optimize routes or have decent evidence in case of disputes.

            The real problem is not really drivers being tracked, but how the tracking data is or might be used. Timestamped delivery notifications might be just as bad in this regard.

            As often, the solution is probably more about accessible and pro-human law. No idea how that should work, maybe certain sensitive data services having to be provided by a third party or even the government itself? There are probably much smarter ideas or variations of this...

            • XorNot 2 hours ago
              Is this even a real scenario though? A data logger is going to notice hours of GPS outage during your working hours.
        • bb88 13 hours ago
          GPS jamming was being investigated by the NTSB as a possible reason for this air crash that killed 4 people near White Sands Missile Range.

          The plane reported GPS signal loss 5 minutes after the jamming started by WSMR. Three other planes in the area also reported GPS loss.

          https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2026-08-05/ntsb-medevac-...

          • sokoloff 9 hours ago
            I’d bet a lot of money that the NTSB will determine that the pilots’ failure to maintain clearance from terrain during a visual approach will be the primary cause with contributing factors of dark, moonless night and GPS jamming.

            That one’s going to be on the flight crew, not the GPS jamming test.

            HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49181099

            • bb88 8 hours ago
              I'm not going to argue that as it's always easy to blame dead people, but there's two different types of jamming.

              One is to actually jam the signal IOW preventing reception. The other is to overpower the satellites' signals and replace them with your own. That defeats the doppler calculations of GPS needed for triangulation, and instead the receiver believes it's where the jammer wants it to be.

              If the latter includes altitude information, then it's a huge problem.

              • sokoloff 8 hours ago
                I believe it’s been made public that this was a jamming test, not a spoofing test.
                • bb88 7 hours ago
                  If you overpower a signal, is there a difference? I'm not saying you're right or wrong here. I'm just saying there's a long history of coverups in the government and military.

                  If you can say, "oh we were only jamming" when in fact you were spoofing, well that's certainly a super easy excuse to hide behind.

                  • sokoloff 7 hours ago
                    In either case, asking for and being cleared for a visual approach (as the crew did and was) puts the onus on them to maintain continuous visual contact with the airport and to maintain their own terrain and obstacle clearance, which it’s safe to say they didn’t do.
        • torginus 4 hours ago
          If I was a concerned boss, I would likely use GSM cell info to track my drivers. While not good enough to do turn-to-turn navigation it certainly is good enough to tell where people are.

          Btw, don't smartphones have this built in? I remember some old and cheap Android phones without GPS that came with this.

        • Gigachad 6 hours ago
          GPS jamming is fairly detectable right? I wonder if we could create some crowd souced map of jammers. I think this kind of already exists as fairly course data but if a bunch of people installed fixed GPS sensors at home and wired them up to note every time their location lock is lost or moves. It could create a hyper detailed map of where the jammers are and track them moving in realtime.
          • michaelt 4 hours ago
            > if a bunch of people installed fixed GPS sensors at home

            Similar things already exist - although it's used for increasing GPS precision and detecting faulty satellites, moreso than detecting jamming, so the networks might not be dense enough to detect small areas of jamming.

            For one state's example, see [1] - choose 'RINEX archives' if you want historical readings.

            [1] http://www.wsrn.org/Map/SensorMap.aspx

          • colechristensen 5 hours ago
            They're easy to find, but not necessarily with stuff from off the shelf. Professionals with the right equipment though have no trouble locating them. The FCC is happy to hand out 5 and 6 digit fines for operating a GPS jammer and has fined retailers tens of millions for selling them.
            • Gigachad 4 hours ago
              If you wanted to exactly pinpoint it with a single device sure, but I'm thinking of a map where nodes just report that they are experiencing jamming, and then with the whole network you can see a radius of the jam, see it moving around, and assume it's somewhere in the center. All with cheap off the shelf hardware.

              The police could probably combine this data with license plate scanners and see the single truck that always exists in the jammed location.

            • cucumber3732842 30 minutes ago
              I know we all like to jack ourselves raw to the big powerful government handing out ruinous fines for things we don't like but realistically none of that is gonna stick to some McDonalds manager who's got a side gig importing Alibaba stuff or some delivery driver who bought it. You can't get blood from a stone. You're just guaranteeing the stone always stays a stone.

              Yeah the FCC could probably pull an ATF and shoot a bunch of people over fairly petty crimes but that costs political goodwill that I'm not sure the FCC has to burn.

        • pigggg 6 hours ago
          Eh a month or two before the October 2023 Israel conflict - there were many reports of GPS jamming in the middle east impacting air transport aircraft. To the point where it basically caused various failure modes that shouldn't have happened with avionics (think the things you'd expect in a fuzzing scenario). It was pretty eye opening example of just how poor modern avionics are (and their integrations) when they get unpredictable inputs & the dependant downrange systems that rely upon that data.
        • dzhiurgis 4 hours ago
          Russia has a satellite constellation for global jamming.
        • dylanger 2 hours ago
          [dead]
      • azernik 14 hours ago
        Being much closer to the receiver and tied into terrestrial power grids, ground-based beacons can transmit at higher powers than GNSS signals and be received at much higher powers.

        Received GNSS power is on the order of -130dBm (10e-16 W) - you can jam that with a 1W terrestrial source for hundreds of meters around. Way more if you're willing to scale the power from car USB power levels to bigger grid-connected supplies.

        LORAN, from my quick googling, looks to be about 6-7 orders of magnitude higher received power.

    • jacquesm 16 hours ago
      And LORAN. But it may make a come-back.

      GPS signals are just incredibly weak so it takes next to nothing to drown them out, easier still if you are above the receiver.

      • toomuchtodo 16 hours ago
        I would be curious on and interested in guidance from a GNSS expert on what the risk profile is when you're using jam resistant frequencies with a multi GNSS constellation chipset (GPS, Galileo, BeiDou), WAAS (GNSS corrections received via satellite), and when close enough to airports that support it, LAAS (GNSS corrections broadcast from airports). Follow up questions would be what countermeasures are available to bolster GNSS reliability during critical phases of flight (takeoff and landing), as well as how cellular tower networks could be used as distributed sensor fabrics for constantly monitoring for and triangulate GNSS jamming using SDR (or perhaps start with a handful of GNSS reference monitoring stations at major airports for this monitoring).

        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49186101

        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49184484

        GPSJam: Daily maps of possible GPS interference - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37868106 - October 2023 (89 comments)

        GPSJam: Daily Maps of GPS Interference - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245346 - July 2022 (82 comments)

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-range_multilateration | https://www.arrl.org/direction-finding

        https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ | https://arcg.is/18fWq8

        • leonidasrup 15 hours ago
          Because GPS and other GNSS have only a very weak signal strength there are no jam resistant frequencies, you can jam them all very efficiently, or you can jam them very efficiently in selective way (jam BeiDou, but not GPS).

          GPS was jammed even as early as Iraq war.

          "Coalition troops also got a glimpse of GPS’s greatest weakness during the Gulf War. Iraqi forces installed jammers, for example, on top of landmarks such as Saddam Hussein’s palaces to prevent them from being hit, Mastalir says. This helped the military realize early on that it would have to further develop its laser-guided munitions and other weapons that acquire targets when GPS is unavailable"

          https://web.archive.org/web/20160208233555/http://www.scient...

          • torginus 4 hours ago
            I think Starshield (Starlink for the military) is going to use lasers as the means of communication (and location). Those are highly directionaly, and likely not possible to jam. Though I'm not sure how resistant are they to atmospheric interference, and the sats need to know where your receivers are, which I can't imagine the military is too happy about.
          • jacquesm 14 hours ago
            A lot of work is being done to make GPS more jam resistant, and - just as important - more spoof resistant. The latest batch of satellites has a whole raft of countermeasures to help a receiver to identify whether the received signal is genuine or whether it was spoofed. Receivers too can do a lot to detect spoofing by just observing the signal (for instance: unrealistic power levels on reception, impossible response to vehicle movement and others besides), but quite a few of those are unrealistic or too expensive for regular (non military) applications. Jam resistant frequencies do not exist as you already mentioned, from a physics perspective. But GP might mean this to refer to the new M-Code signal, and these are sent out on different frequency offsets from the main carrier, so effectively different frequencies.
    • numpad0 9 hours ago
      Most pre-GPS navigation systems have shorter baselines than GPS and therefore accuracy is much worse, on top of generally being more complicated
    • cjbgkagh 12 hours ago
      Probably be easier and more reliable to use star navigation with modern cameras, computers and atomic clocks. Especially for commercial aircraft flying above the weather.
      • mike_d 12 hours ago
        Celestial navigation requires an accurate clock and an almanac that needs to be updated. It is completely impractical for non-military applications.
        • raron 8 hours ago
          Is that really that impractical?

          With a quick calculation 50 ms time offset would mean about 20 meter difference. You can get that accuracy with NTP over residential internet and a better TCXO could hold that for a day. You could sync clocks and download the almanac at each airport. The almanac could be digitally signed and NTP has an option for authentication, too. That's about 10 USD of hardware (plus what you need for image capture and processing).

          I'm pretty sure with dedicated hardware and better solutions you could get much better accuracy.

        • malfist 9 hours ago
          Does the almanac need updating? I regularly use plate solving with my telescope and I've never had to update it's stars database
    • civvv 9 hours ago
      Guess its back to the good ol' map, compass and stopwatch.
    • himata4113 15 hours ago
      We have starlink I am sure they can figure something out.
      • mschuster91 15 hours ago
        Starlink lacks the high precision atomic clocks on board of the satellites, that is also why Starlink needs a GPS fix to bootstrap itself.
        • nomel 15 hours ago
          Maybe the starlink clocks could continuously calibrate from gps? Clock drift is usually a slow thing (like thermals). Their inter-satellite data links have all sorts of relative clocking info.
          • numpad0 9 hours ago
            IIUC, GPS picks one satellite and 3 more to establish time differences between the first one and the other 3. There's only one point in universe where the set of differences would match what was observed, given the broadcast orbital data of satellites, and that gives the location of the receiver. It's like you are provided radii and center coordinates of 3 circles on a paper that intersect at 1 point and you are to math that point.

            So GPS-like systems need precise orbital data and coherent clock from each satellites, or otherwise the receiver cannot figure out those radii.

            Presumably you can have each sats reflect a clock from the same master ground station but that's not how GPS is implemented currently.

            • nomel 6 hours ago
              Coherency is a state. My question is if that state can be achieved by just tuning the individual clocks/locations based on GPS as a master. And, there's other tricks, with all the inter-satellite communication [1].

              And, there's a contextual difference here between civilian GPS and military GPS. Much of the precision in the existing GPS satellites is to support the military use of GPS, with intentionally error injected into the civilian side.

              And, by the nature of the hostile environment the military operates, military craft don't have as strong of a reliance on something that's ephemeral, like a GPS signal on a battlefield.

              [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2501.05302

              • skew-aberration 5 hours ago
                What you describe is very normal in telecom and has been for a long time. 4G, 5G, etc are all totally dependent on every device syncing to the one higher up in the chain. These days typically a digital control loop is used to tune a high frequency voltage-controlled oscillator which feeds a counter. An event (like GPS PPS, or an ethernet frame arriving on the cable) is extracted from the signal and the counter generates a timestamp. The chips to do this are incredibly cheap and the performance is hard to comprehend.

                https://www.ti.com/product-category/clocks-timing/clock-netw...

        • himata4113 12 hours ago
          We have starlink I am sure we can figure it out. Like... launch a better GPS system with one rocket?
          • numpad0 9 hours ago
            doesn't take sat swarms. what you need are some cash and bunch of educated and motivated smart people. that can be tricky sometimes
  • Descon 7 hours ago
    I wish there were cheap Bluetooth jammers to prevent speakers from playing when hiking
    • elric 5 hours ago
      I strongly suspect those would be very illegal and could result in serious side effects, such as for people who use continuous glucose monitors.
    • exhilaration 50 minutes ago
      Check this out: https://github.com/sammwyy/bleeding

      BLEeding is a tool that allows you to jam Bluetooth (BR/EDR) and BLE devices. It can be used to spam DeAuth requests or L2CAP ping requests. It supports Linux, macOS, Windows and Raspberry PI.

    • ivanjermakov 1 hour ago
      Should be easy to purchase a 2.4GHz jammer, about as easy as to get in trouble for using it though.
    • gib444 1 hour ago
      Heh yeah the 'oh god 2 minutes with my own thoughts !? Must blare music to stop the pain' or 'look at me, the main character' crowd lol
    • HaloZero 5 hours ago
      Wouldn’t they also stop AirPods from working?
      • gib444 1 hour ago
        Whenever I hear leaking earbuds on public transport, it's invariably AirPods
    • dzhiurgis 4 hours ago
      Where do you hike where it’s a problem? I mean if I meet perhaps 10 people max over 2 hours. If all of them were blasting music it still wouldn’t worry me at all.
  • donohoe 15 hours ago
    What I want is a tiny portable bluetooth jammer for those who insist everyone in public must be listening to their music. Sadly they are too clunky to haul around each day.
    • blululu 5 hours ago
      This guy has an open schematic:

      https://github.com/cifertech/RF-Clown

      You can use their files to make one via a pcb vendor like jlpcb or you can look for someone who has already done that:

      https://www.tindie.com/products/ryanyu/rf-clown-v20-esp32-wi...

      • embedding-shape 57 minutes ago
        These "solutions" always seem too broad with too much collateral damage. Would this be doable to do with a directional antenna or something instead, so you could aim at the specific speaker (in your own house) you want silenced?
    • itubaj 11 hours ago
      If I am not mistaken, this type of jammer can severily affect people with pacemakers. But, as a Brazilian citizen, I can understand the feeling of being forced to listen other's people music.
      • yjrpnz440v0b2n1 9 hours ago
        its myth youre mistaken because that would mean all the wifi devices and normal bt devices will also stop pacemaker. only early version of pacemaker before internet would be affected modern pacemakers have protection as long as you keep a safe 6 inch distance
        • itake 2 hours ago
          can you cite the source?

          I'd imagine temporary (15 minutes?) disruption would be considered in the design of pacemakers or blood glucose monitors, but if you're using this in close proximity for a long period of time... then wouldn't there be problems?

    • abirch 15 hours ago
      Unfortunately for me, when I hear music it's from the horrible audio of a cell phone speaker.
    • subw00f 15 hours ago
      Are they? You can make one pretty easily and sew it into your backpack for added camouflage. I heard.
    • sowbug 9 hours ago
    • yjrpnz440v0b2n1 9 hours ago
      how i even make a clunky one ? need one for a neighbor in 3rd world country with lowest civic sense.

      i tried that esp32 that uses nRF24 but it doesnt seem to jam all the time. i heard about hackrf one dont know if its can properly do that.

      • aidenn0 6 hours ago
        You can brute-force jam the entire 80MHz range. However, it would require roughly 13dB more power compared to jamming a narrow-band signal.

        In theory, you could try to exploit the adaptive frequency hopping that bluetooth does, nudging it to switch to specific bands, which you will then jam; this could save on energy, but I don't know if anybody's done it.

  • mlhpdx 15 hours ago
    With all the man made EM emitters in the world, it seems like passively matching what can be “seen” to a database of known emitters (with signal profiles and locations) could be extremely accurate where people are (less helpful on the open ocean and remote wilderness). Similar to what’s already being done with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth but general purpose, perhaps?
    • 1718627440 14 hours ago
      I think that is already done by the two big smartphone OS vendors.
      • Terr_ 8 hours ago
        They record spots for all wireless access points too, unless you opt-out by naming them certain ways and the surveillance-capitalism company decides to honor it. (e.g. The _nomap suffix.)

        I hope some future Wifi standard makes it much easier to anonymize or obscure persistent access points.

        • Gigachad 6 hours ago
          That's always existed with Hidden SSID. If you are particularly paranoid you can set it up like that. But unless you insert personally identifiable info in your wifi name there is not really any privacy risk for this data being mapped.
          • Terr_ 5 hours ago
            > That's always existed with Hidden SSID. If you are particularly paranoid you can set it up like that.

            It's actually the opposite, a hidden SSID will backfire and hurt your privacy when it comes to phones and laptops.

            With a normal network, your phone can passively listen for when it approaches MyHomeNetwork and then connect. If you change that to a 802.11 hidden SSID, then whenever you aren't connected your phone will be constantly emitting a very distinctive mating-call: "Any hidden networks? Hello, if you're MyHomeNetwork, please then let me in." That makes it easy for someone to uniquely identify your phone as it moves around, and it also takes up more battery power with the often-fruitless transmissions.

            Both issues could be reduced by restricting it to only auto-seek the SSID based on other clues, like GPS regions or neighbors' public SSIDs, but that usually isn't a feature.

            > But unless you insert personally identifiable info in your wifi name there is not really any privacy risk for this data being mapped.

            How often do you reset/rename it? Surely it's at least weird that some big companies, via sensors carried by your neighbors, know you moved your apartments from X to Y even when you don't use any of their products.

            Some phone-apps will have access to the network name too, but that seems just marginally worse compared to other identifying info they could track and exfiltrate.

            • Gigachad 4 hours ago
              These are valid points, but I think the utility of being able to get location on your phone without power sucking GPS running all day is greater than the privacy risk of seeing when a wifi AP moved address. Which if you were so inclined, could be avoided by changing the wifi name each move.
  • United857 8 hours ago
    Aren’t most modern receivers multi-constellation? What is the technical feasibility of jamming every GNSS provider?
    • tepmoc 4 hours ago
      They all within same close tied frequency range, so it’s pretty easy. Though L1,L2,L5 need separate jammers if you only target GNSS
  • vamos_davai 2 hours ago
    We have a defense budget. Deploy some troops or hellfire the jamming operator
    • chii 1 hour ago
      With each hellfire costing upwards of $150k per shot, it's not cost effective to use them to shoot down jammers
  • teeray 1 day ago
    I saw some rumblings (can't find an article) that there's interest in restarting LORAN to provide an alternative to GPS for this reason.
    • ianburrell 8 hours ago
      eLoran has been proposed as more accurate version of LORAN competitive with GPS.

      The Wikipedia page says that China has deployed an eLoran network but I can't tell if used for navigation or just high-precision timing.

    • throw0101d 16 hours ago
    • budman1 1 day ago
      LORAN can be jammed.
      • leonidasrup 15 hours ago
        "In trials conducted by the General Lighthouse Authorities of UK and Ireland, a 1.5W radio jammer was able to knock out GPS signals over a range of 30 kilometers. However, to do the same to the Loran system, you'd need a 40ft tower — and around 25kW of juice to power it."

        https://www.engadget.com/2013-01-21-uk-eloran-navigation-sys...

      • teeray 1 day ago
        Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.
        • butvacuum 16 hours ago
          It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear in some IR bands) 4) Terain following (easy to store maps now) 5) Inertial. 6) magnetic

          When combined it is very hard to break the position fix. I expect the issue with the system is it's a military tech. with all it's that'll associated legal problems. After all. it'd bypass most the protections built into GPS modules.

          • wbl 15 hours ago
            And the military has JDAM with HOJ as a solution for jamming
            • butvacuum 11 hours ago
              I was thinking G-man and a suprise helicopter on your lawn. The government hasn't made a spectical of throwing the book at a jammer recently.
        • mschuster91 15 hours ago
          > astronavigation

          Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this, or an aircraft with high enough window cutouts that allow for the use of a sextant. Old Boeings had them [1], but no modern aircraft does.

          I think even among navies you'll be hard pressed to find a navigator who still can do astronavigation. IIRC even the US Navy discontinued astronavigation, but recently-ish reintroduced training for it again.

          [1] https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.htm...

          • leonidasrup 15 hours ago
            In the 21st century you don't do astronavigation by hand, you use cameras, computers and software.

            Astro-inertial guidance is used for example in submarine-launched ballistic missiles.

            "Astro-inertial guidance, or stellar-inertial guidance, is a sensor fusion-information fusion of inertial guidance and celestial navigation. It is usually employed on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Unlike silo-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, whose launch point does not move and thus can serve as a reference, SLBMs are launched from moving submarines, which complicates the necessary navigational calculations and increases circular error probable. Stellar-inertial guidance is used to correct small position and velocity errors that result from launch condition uncertainties due to errors in the submarine navigation system and errors that may have accumulated in the guidance system during the flight due to imperfect instrument calibration."

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance

            • mschuster91 11 hours ago
              Yeah but good luck getting that approved for new airliner designs, much less retrofitting it into existing airliners. For the older ones, you'd probably need to rework half their computers.
          • teeray 15 hours ago
            > Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this

            Not necessary. ICBMs have been able to do this autonomously for a very long time [0]

            [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

      • jacquesm 16 hours ago
        Not so simple. For one the distances to the transmitter are much smaller, for another the amount of power available to the transmitters is pretty much whatever you want to hook it up to, whereas GPS satellites are on a pretty strict power budget. On the reception side the power levels are many orders of magnitude apart.
      • cyberax 16 hours ago
        Not really. It uses 2MHz band, with the wavelength of around 160m.

        This means that it's easy to receive via a ferrite bar antenna but hard to transmit. You need an antenna of at least around 40m size for that to be efficient.

        • lstodd 15 hours ago
          Even a 160m guy-wire tower is cheap. 40m.. my friend installed 32m one just to have better internets, not exactly out of pocket cash, but nothing compared to say swapping a car.
          • cyberax 14 hours ago
            Sure, but such an antenna will be extremely conspicuous and easy to triangulate. You can't install it covertly.

            Meanwhile, GPS can be jammed or spoofed with a briefcase-sized device for a couple of kilometers around you.

    • laruss5 1 day ago
      [dead]
  • rkeswick 7 hours ago
    This explains why my drone occasionally loses signal near commercial areas. A real nuisance to deal with.
  • jayshah5696 14 hours ago
    This is likely just the start. With growing consumer reliance on GPS, jammer proliferation will mirror what we see in military contexts. Same thing will happen to starlink and jamming in contested zones
  • eternityforest 1 day ago
    Is there a reliable app to detect these without using excessive amounts of battery?
    • thenthenthen 15 hours ago
      Better use a software defined radio like hackrf or a more dedicated gps thingy, esp32 with gps addon and some machine learning? (‘Some’ doing a lot of heavy lifting here)
    • imglorp 16 hours ago
      I feel like gps nav software should start considering the jamming and spoofing cases as real conditions they will encounter that should throw up an INOP warning.

      It wouldn't take much smarts for it to consider the type of vessel it's in and the max and current speeds. If the calculated position of a 10 knot vessel suddenly jumps 100 km away in seconds, that sure seems like a spoof. And if you had 10 satellites locked and then you have none, that sure seems like jamming, or you're in a tunnel; INOP either way.

  • stefan_ 16 hours ago
    The systems jamming in Hormuz and Ukraine aren't exactly cheap and low powered, nor are those used by the US military in one of their many jamming exercises every year. Cheap GPS jammers fit in a cigarette lighter and are used by truckers who don't want their boss snooping on them, but they don't quite threaten aviation.

    That aside, you don't need to give up on GPS just yet. As expensive as airplanes are, there is no reason not to have at least 8 element CRPA receivers in them. Mostly a military niche product in the past they are rapidly proliferating, and most fuselages make for a great ground plane.

  • dlenski 13 hours ago
    > At the quantum-sensing firm SandboxAQ, an Alphabet spinoff…

    This was an interesting article up to the point where the writer started taking SandboxAQ seriously.

    For why you shouldn't take SandboxAQ seriously as a creator of actual technology or real products, start here: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/lavish-spending-weak...

  • madiling 1 day ago
  • fangspire 15 hours ago
    Starlink can be uses as GPS. Good luck jamming 20 thousand satellites.
    • left-struck 7 hours ago
      First of all, starlink has been jammed in conflict zones.

      Secondly, the number of satellites doesn’t really matter, the jamming happens at the end user level not at the satellite.

      Finally, where are you getting that 20k number from? It’s not like there’s 20k starlink satellites in LOS to your station at all times. The earth will be obscuring many of those, they are below your feet on the other side of the planet.

    • dghlsakjg 9 hours ago
      Do they have atomic clocks on board?

      I was under the impression that Starlink needs GPS for initial acquisition.

    • nomel 15 hours ago
      That's near orders of magnitude more than reality. The only number that matters is the number of satellites that are in communication line of site. A satellite on the other side of the world doesn't help you.
      • m463 10 hours ago
        I wonder how many are in view?

        gps is 31 total satellites 12,000 miles up

        starlink is 10,000 satellites at ~ 300 miles. (and what orbit?)

        EDIT: I found this:

        -- starlink:

        "In any given place there are 3-4 Starlink satellites visible at a time"

        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42445512 :)

        in december 2024, there were 4,000 starlink satellites in orbit

        so starlink is ~ 8 at all times?

        -- GPS:

        This 24-slot arrangement ensures users can view at least four satellites from virtually any point on the planet.

        - https://www.gps.gov/space-segment

        • BenjiWiebe 7 hours ago
          Remember there's also BeiDou, Galileo, and GLONASS as well.

          Our RTK base station (a Ublox ZED-F9P receiver, with a cheap patch antenna on the roof) can currently see 45 GNSS satellites.

    • inemesitaffia 15 hours ago
      They've removed the in-built PNT service
  • juliusceasar 1 day ago
    Those cheap GPS jammers, which sites should I avoid to not buy them by accident?
    • vablings 15 hours ago
      It's not rocket science to make a GPS jammer. GPS Spoofing is more complex and causes way more damage or chaos. I would seriously avoid touching this subject whatsoever this is the kind of thing that will have the FBI and FCC so far up your ass you will feel it in the back of your eyeballs. On the off chance the feds don't catch you and you cause a serious accident you will be charged with 1st degree murder of how many people were on the aircraft that crashed along with a litany of other federal offences meaning life without parole is basically a guarantee.
    • michaelmrose 16 hours ago
      [dead]
  • djoldman 16 hours ago
    No worries in the long run; similar to the "energy crisis," new inventions and technology will mitigate the issue:

    Quantum Compass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_compass

    Also see: https://www.sandboxaq.com/post/sandboxaq-and-acubed-achieve-...

    • andrehacker 16 hours ago
    • vablings 15 hours ago
      The magnetic approach is very interesting. I can't imagine it would ever be reliable enough for a primary instrument since its susceptible to solar weather and certain regions with more geological activity.
    • Hizonner 16 hours ago
      I'm sorry, but a multi-kilogram (at a guess), five-figure-priced (at a conservative guess) device with kilometer-scale error (per their actual press release) is not a substitute for a GPS.

      And you probably can't improve on many of those specs no matter how much "inventing" you do. There's just not that much information in magnetic fields, especially if you don't spend an infeasible amount of money on keeping maps up to date. You're probably jammable, too.

      The same applies to the gravitational hacks, and the mapping issue applies even to visual navigation.

      Those guesses, by the way, are because not only is AQNav's "data sheet" worthless fluff, but they seem to be allergic to letting anybody even see a picture of the product. Which makes me doubt that they actually have what a normal person would think of as a "product" to begin with.

      • monster_truck 6 hours ago
        Datasheets that look like that are a pretty strong indicator you're dealing with something that is giga export controlled, not as in "can only go to some countries, you have to declare it and theres a LOT of paperwork", more "attempting to, or even making plans about trying to leave the country with one is a pile of federal crimes"

        Virtually anything navigational that cannot be easily or reliably jammed falls into this category far before meeting any of the accuracy/drift requirements.

      • djoldman 14 hours ago
        No need to be sorry.

        My "no worries" comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Who knows how far the tech will go or how cheap it will get.