10 comments

  • jonhohle 1 minute ago
    I’ve thought about how to introduce a bill and find sponsors for extending first sale and related rights to digital goods. I understand the current terms and licensing, but we’ve lost too much to non-transferable contracts and millennials and later will likely have no books, music, or games that can be inherited by their children. It’s crazy that after thousands of years of sharing copies of writings, hundreds of years of sharing recordings, and decades of sharing games, we’re going to give it all up because it’s a license now.

    The problem is, where to even start? I would think EFF would be spearheading something like this, but I haven’t come across anything. There have been attempts in the past, but they don’t seem to have ongoing support.

  • vl 10 minutes ago
    They are going to do what movie industry is already doing: create shell company for release of each game.

    Then they will shut down the company when they want, and there will be nobody to come for.

    • radium3d 5 minutes ago
      These laws just complicate things, make it more expensive to run a game company and these government people don't get it. This will just result in making it more expensive to make games and keep them running. On top of that, it incentivises subscription based games.

      > 'it excludes games provided via subscription services, free-to-play games, and games that are inherently playable offline indefinitely. It also prohibits the continued sale or distribution of games that have become unusable due to service termination.'

      The only winners are lawyers. NOT gamers. The lawyers always like to call their laws "protect X" lol

    • tyleo 5 minutes ago
      I mentioned this in a separate thread. It seems like a huge risk to release an online game if you don't do this now. A single bad game can take down a studio. Now there's even more risk because a previously successful game may come with a big bill in the future if you have to do refunds or some late architecture change when you instead want to take a product down to save money.
  • phreack 1 hour ago
    > The bill applies to digitally sold games. However, it excludes games provided via subscription services, free-to-play games, and games that are inherently playable offline indefinitely. It also prohibits the continued sale or distribution of games that have become unusable due to service termination.

    I believe this is the key paragraph. I wonder if this will be an incentive towards making more games qualify for those exceptions. I think the previous cases where this act would apply are few but good thing they wouldn't increase under this act.

    • pibaker 1 hour ago
      California and meaningless feel good legislation with massive loopholes? A match made in heaven!

      If this is how the bill ends up being enacted, it will only push more big game developers into making their titles subscription only. A win for gamers' rights, I suppose.

      • gwerbin 14 minutes ago
        It's not meaningless feel-good legislation, it's actively harmful by disincentivizing a bad thing, in favor of an even worse thing. See also car fuel economy standards that push car makers into killing the wagon market segment in favor of SUVs.
        • NooneAtAll3 3 minutes ago
          > See also car fuel economy standards that push car makers into killing the wagon market segment in favor of SUVs.

          by the way, why wasn't this bug fixed long ago?

      • Akronymus 5 minutes ago
        Subscription only games get way less revenue than pay once for the most part. So I don't think moving to subscriptions isn't gonna be as attractive to publishers as you think.

        Also, with a subscription the customer has VERY different expectations, compared to a one time purchase. As in, they expect the access to go away once they no longer pay.

      • cosmojg 45 minutes ago
        I think it's more likely that the big studios will start rolling out trivial offline modes (less risky) rather than overhaul their revenue models (more risky).
      • RobotToaster 56 minutes ago
        I can see them adding a $1 per year subscription at the very least.
        • meatmanek 45 minutes ago
          At least that somewhat aligns incentives between players and the game studio. If an old game has a long-lasting player base, then a modest subscription makes it more likely that the studio would keep the servers up and running, if not actively patching the game. With a game that you pay for up-front, a long-lived player base can be a liability for the company (ongoing costs without many new purchases.)
          • ddtaylor 12 minutes ago
            It seems similar to operating an arcade or a movie theater and saying that you can have thousands of people enter but then only having space for a couple while still taking everyone's money.
          • paradox460 37 minutes ago
            Why is this a problem? Quake 3 came out a quarter century ago, yet there are still community host servers available
            • tadfisher 20 minutes ago
              Quake 3 can also be played fully offline, for various measures of "play" and "fully".
        • fragmede 45 minutes ago
          Why not $0?
    • MadnessASAP 1 hour ago
      Of course its an incentive, however the disincentives to purchasing (subscribing/spending), and thus producing, such games still exist.
    • nine_k 17 minutes ago
      incentive towards making more games qualify for those exceptions

      Yes, please, produce more "games that are inherently playable offline indefinitely".

    • ocdtrekkie 27 minutes ago
      So this only really applies to games you have to purchase once but are online-only? That's... an incredibly narrow law, that only covers a class of games which are particularly stupid by design. (Continuous cost without continuous revenue.)
      • Paracompact 8 minutes ago
        I assume you're actually a gamer, and not just an economist speculating on a market you're not exposed to? Because I don't know how to reconcile your comment with my reality. There are tons of live-service single-purchase games, I would even say they the overwhelmingly default model in 2026 compared to WoW-style subscription games.

        If you want an answer to your "continuous cost without continuous revenue" riddle, the answer is in-game purchases, DLC, attracting new accounts over time, and the unspoken unadvertised promise "we can cut our losses at any time and shut down servers." This lattermost incentive is what is unhealthy for the market and what should be regulated to no longer be an incentive.

        • thewebguyd 5 minutes ago
          See Diablo 4. One time purchase, live service game. I'm almost certain blizzard makes most of its revenue from it on the cosmetics shop.
          • NooneAtAll3 1 minute ago
            also pretty much all first person shooters are in this category
        • ocdtrekkie 2 minutes ago
          There are a bunch of these, and they are silly/unviable. I see a lot more free-to-play than single-purchase live service games, but the latter is a fun additional exploit in that they get you to pay up front for something that they never have any intention to survive long-term.

          Currently I'm heavily playing both a free-to-play with microtransactions title (Heroes of the Storm) and a subscription title (EVE Online), both of which are live service games which would be exempt from this bill by definition, but are both games I would meaningfully like to play even if the companies decided they didn't want to run them anymore. (Yes, I'm aware both games I am playing regularly are old as time itself.)

          Meanwhile, yes, there are single purchase games with an online model, and they fail and get shut down because they were never sustainable to begin with. The bill would arguably cover something like the FPS-of-the-years which are intended to grab everyone's attention for a few months and then die off when the company needs you to buy the next version of the title because they get no recurring revenue from you continuing to play the current one. (See Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc.)

      • numpad0 2 minutes ago
        [delayed]
      • idle_zealot 19 minutes ago
        > Continuous cost without continuous revenue

        That would be the case if the publisher had any intent to actually keep the service online. Empirically they do not, hence the law.

      • Akronymus 20 minutes ago
        It also covers games with any form of MTX, even if the base game is free. So most live service games.
        • ocdtrekkie 7 minutes ago
          I don't read it that way. "Free-to-play" games generally include games with microtransactions, and the bill text does nothing to disagree with that:

          > (b) This section does not apply to any of the following:

          > (2) Any digital game that is advertised or offered to a person for no monetary consideration.

          This solely refers to the game being available for free, not for any additional powerups or cosmetics being available for free.

          • Akronymus 2 minutes ago
            > > (2) Any digital game that is advertised or offered to a person for no monetary consideration.

            I'd argue buying any form of MTX creates a monetary consideration. Though, I guess it is kind of a gray area that's gonna have to be ruled on.

            > This solely refers to the game being available for free, not for any additional powerups or cosmetics being available for free.

            I didn't intend to mean additional stuff being free. I meant additional stuff you can buy, resulting in the no monetary considerations carveout not applying.

      • irishcoffee 11 minutes ago
        We shall call it the Diablo 4 law.
        • jnovek 5 minutes ago
          Don’t a bunch of shooters also follow this model?
  • Manuel_D 12 minutes ago
    Releasing server-side code would be a non-starter for lots of companies. For one, many of them don't actually own all of the code they use to implement the game server. There's lots of proprietary middleware in use in online games.

    Perhaps a workaround is to just have 1 server online indefinitely. Technically the online services are still functional - the match queue times would just be very, very large.

    • Ukv 1 minute ago
      > There's lots of proprietary middleware in use in online games

      If bills like this pass, there'd be financial pressure on middleware providers to allow distribution at end-of-life (or for their component to be easily severed) else they'd lose out on all customers selling games in California/EU/etc.

    • jnovek 6 minutes ago
      Release a spec. Release a binary distribution. I’m sure they could find a way to make it happen if it was in the studios’ interest.
  • gib444 2 minutes ago
    [delayed]
  • wagwang 1 hour ago
    The reasonable compromise should be to force devs to release server binaries if they are not willing to run the servers themselves.
    • bob1029 1 hour ago
      I don't think forcing a person or business to divulge their intellectual property, simply because they no longer wish to provide downstream products or services, is reasonable. That said, as a consumer I really don't like when something goes away. Overwatch 1 was probably the most brutal experience for me. In the end, I don't think anyone has any kind of special entitlements here.

      The server binaries will almost always include other proprietary information that the studio will not want to release. Any sanitation of this binary further condemns this as a silly idea because now you are also compelling the individual or business to do additional (presumably unpaid) work so that arbitrary consumers can use their products or services indefinitely.

      • wagwang 54 minutes ago
        If they dont want to release the source then just keep running the servers! I think its ridiculous that people can buy games and the games just stop working and its ok because of some legalese that literally no one reads. Alternatively, why not just align your incentives with the user and charge subscriptions.

        Games are interesting because players will sink a lot of time and sometimes money in and so it goes beyond a smart alarm clock or a fitness tracker imo.

      • argentite 2 minutes ago
        > now you are also compelling the individual or business to do additional (presumably unpaid) work

        This is not unpaid work as they had already received payment at the time of purchase of the game. They should take into account the cost associated with this work at the time of sale.

      • circuit10 58 minutes ago
        If this was about open source software I’d agree about not forcing people to do additional work, but if you’re selling something for money you should be obligated to do the bare minimum of stripping secrets out of a binary so the product you sold can actually work (and this will be barely any work if it’s designed with this in mind in the first place)

        We already obligate them to do other basic necessities for consumer protection such as refunding or replacing faulty products

      • duskwuff 57 minutes ago
        > The server binaries will almost always include other proprietary information that the studio will not want to release.

        Or even information that they are contractually forbidden from releasing. A typical scenario would be a game developed as a fork of a proprietary codebase which was licensed from another company. Forcing the licensee to release material would infringe on the rights of the licensor.

        • bob1029 47 minutes ago
          There's also scenarios like games that depended on GameSpy being forced out into the cold. Battle for Middle Earth 2 is a good example of this. The LOTR rights expiring isn't what got them. It was another provider going away in a puff of smoke and not enough player base to justify a complete rewrite of the backend.

          https://www.ea.com/news/update-on-ea-titles-hosted-on-gamesp...

        • circuit10 53 minutes ago
          It would at least be reasonable to expect this for future games, just treat the server binary the same way as the client in terms of what code you include (there way be some more involved if they have to migrate off a reusable codebase but I think it’s worth it)
          • duskwuff 37 minutes ago
            I don't think it's reasonable for a law to dictate how software must be developed. If a developer wants to create some software by taking some licensed code and modifying it, that's their prerogative - it seems rather overreaching for the law to mandate that any licensed code must be structured as a library. (And in practice it'd be rather limiting for that to be the case.)
            • Maxatar 21 minutes ago
              Almost every law that exists about software exists to dictate what a consumer is or isn't allowed to do with software on their own computer using their own hardware.

              For once, there is a law that actually dictates the responsibilities that a developer has to the customer, and all that responsibility states is that the developer can not revoke the use of software that a customer has already fully paid for under certain narrow circumstances; somehow this is what you find to be unreasonable?

            • circuit10 32 minutes ago
              It is of course reasonable to restrict what you can do with a product you’re selling for money. There are plenty of laws and regulations that already do this. Without these kinds of laws intellectual property wouldn’t even exist - copyright was only created to benefit society by providing an incentive for people to create and invent things

              It’s no different from mandating that the software can’t be malware that puts a ransom on your data, contain other people’s copyrighted content without permission, or just not work despite you claiming that it does when you sold it

              And it’s not mandating that anything is structured in a particular way, just that the game works as the buyer would expect and how they achieve that is up to them

        • mschuster91 23 minutes ago
          > Or even information that they are contractually forbidden from releasing.

          Laws trump contracts.

      • singpolyma3 20 minutes ago
        True. Better would be to eliminate society damage like "intellectual property" and require everything to be available regardless
      • xboxnolifes 41 minutes ago
        Company's only exist so far as state law allows them to operate within them. It's not forcing them to do something after some point in time, it's a requirement to be a business at all.
      • arikrahman 28 minutes ago
        The binaries can be obfuscated.
        • jandrewrogers 19 minutes ago
          Not meaningfully. AI-guided reverse-engineering is very effective.

          This also isn't relevant to third-party code obtained under license. It is a de facto restriction on code dependencies, which may significantly increase development costs.

          • nekitamo 8 minutes ago
            While AI isn't particularly good with obfuscated code, it is true that code obfuscation in most old games can be removed relatively easily. The attack and defense state-of-the-art has moved on from those days.
      • redsocksfan45 57 minutes ago
        [dead]
    • Akronymus 11 minutes ago
      No, the reasonable compromise should be that the game remains playable, how that is achieved is up to the dev. Some will release the binaries, some make the spec open to the public for people to implement their own, some will patch out the online requirement, etc...
    • Manuel_D 11 minutes ago
      The developers may not have licenses for all the components of the server-side code. Lots of proprietary middleware is in use in online games.
    • nine_k 19 minutes ago
      It would be enough to guarantee no legal threats against users who reverse-engineer the protocol and implement their own server. (A catchy name for it: "Fair Game Act".)
    • kristiandupont 22 minutes ago
      The backend for a game is not just an .exe file. It can be a mess of a system that relies on all kinds of services that need maintenance and that one dev who knows how to reset the cache.

      I agree that it's shitty that buyers can lose access to a game they bought, but I really struggle to see how this could function practically.

    • TylerE 1 hour ago
      What if, as a very high number do, the server uses something like a proprietary SQL database?
      • mschuster91 22 minutes ago
        So what, dedicated hackers will find a way around that. There's bigger fish to fry.
    • doctorpangloss 1 hour ago
      i don't know, do game developers have a right to sell a Remastered Multiplayer Edition later? in my opinion, yes.
    • kgwxd 1 hour ago
      Government forced speech is never reasonable. If you don't like the arrangement, just don't buy the game. Tell them why you didn't buy the game. Hope for a better future where more of the industry is built on open source. That's all anyone can do. That's all anyone should be able to do.
      • autoexec 58 minutes ago
        > Government forced speech is never reasonable.

        Government forced speech includes food companies needing to add ingredient labels on packaging including allergen info, landlords needing to notify tenants before entering their homes, stores having to post accurate prices for the products they sell, and employers having to provide workers with safety data sheets for the hazardous materials they work with. These are all perfectly reasonable. Thanks to government forced speech we have more freedom/rights and better lives.

      • wredcoll 1 hour ago
        There's always someone willing to blame the victim.

        The answer to companies committing fraud is not "buyer beware".

        • ethin 1 hour ago
          What are you proposing then? The government is not allowed to compel speech for good reason.
          • Y-bar 53 minutes ago
            That’s not a Carte Blanche that forbids the government from everything.

            The government can compel speech food and other producers to print content and nutritional labels on their products. The government can compel speech on a yearly basis when we file taxes. The can compel speech such as guidance maps and websites to be accessible to the blind (ADA). They can compel vehicle owners to provide insurance and ownership information, which is a kind of speech.

          • hgoel 17 minutes ago
            Welp, better get rid of all nutritional facts, allergy warnings, medical side effect notices and all the other signage mandated by government for your safety.
          • ppseafield 42 minutes ago
            This is not just free speech, it's commerce, and the government has the ability to regulate commerce. Warranties and lemon laws are not regulating speech - they're regulating sales and the legal requirements for those sales. Providing a method for playing a game a customer purchased after the company decides to abandon it is putting a legal requirement on the sale of goods.
  • okdood64 36 minutes ago
    This what California's political machinery is focused on? Rather than the colossal waste that is the high speed rail project, or rampant corrupt use of State and local funds for social welfare projects that go nowhere?

    I understand you can focus on two things at the same time, and moonshot projects are worth it. (More NASA funding please.) But as a California taxpayer I can't take our government seriously.

    • thinkingtoilet 30 minutes ago
      What's important is you came here, didn't address the article at all, and rambled off some talking points.
  • charcircuit 47 minutes ago
    So just make every game free to play and then require a paying to unlock the actual game.
    • idle_zealot 18 minutes ago
      As ever it will come down to judicial discretion whether trivial word games are allowed to nullify the law or not.
    • Akronymus 13 minutes ago
      That'd IMO count as a monetary consideration, and thus not be excempt.
  • phendrenad2 1 hour ago
    I think this will cause a big schism in the Stop Killing Games movement. Game devs who were sympathetic to the movement will expect that this is enough, but a lot of people in the movement will be unsatisfied with the carveouts for MMORPGs and XBOX Game Pass and the like.
    • Akronymus 14 minutes ago
      As someone in the movement since basically the beginning, this bill is enough in a lot of areas.

      Subscription games already always had a "no pay, no play" expectation, so I don't see any problem with that carveout. The only real problem I can see is that in-game purchases in free to play games are not additionally explicitly named. (Though, "no monetary considerations" shouldn't include ftp + mtx)

      Also, most gamepass games are available for purchase as well, so I don't see the problem there either, except the possibility that a game is removed from gamepass so you lose access despite paying, but that's something for the courts to figure out.

    • ronsor 53 minutes ago
      A lot of people in the movement think game companies are the root problem when what they actually have a problem with is current copyright law.
    • redsocksfan45 49 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • kahrl 49 minutes ago
    So instead of whole products sold at a one time price, there will be more and more subscription based services micro-transaction slop. 10/10 California. Never change.
    • tapoxi 27 minutes ago
      But right now we have games that you have purchased for a one-time price, the developer revokes your ability to play it years later, and you have no recourse.