9 comments

  • darkteflon 2 hours ago
    Cool science. But the article fails to take even a cursory stab at contextualising the plan against the economic, environmental and political backdrop - doesn’t even mention that there’s already been one failed supersonic commercial flight programme. This is as pie-in-the-sky as it gets.
    • hdndjsbbs 1 hour ago
      I think a lot of the Concorde failure is tied to its status as a British-French project. Trans-Pacific flights are much longer and there's a lot of money in PEK -> LAX than in JFK -> LHR.

      Qantas wanted to offer London to Sydney, but they couldn't fly supersonic over land. Mainland China or Japan to Australia is a feasible route for high-margin, low-capacity supersonic flights.

      If you could make the flight from Beijing to California take less than 5 hours that seems like a premium product many ultra wealthy people would spring for. Dubai to SFO is also a possible route.

      • decimalenough 1 hour ago
        There is a lot of money in NYC-LHR, that's why Concorde continued to fly that route and profitably too, once they realized how high they could yank the prices and still fill the plane.

        Also, Concorde's maximum range was 4,488 mi, which was calibrated to allow trans-Atlantic but not much more. Trans-Pac was not an option and even Australia to North Asia would be a stretch.

        • bobthepanda 55 minutes ago
          I think they are agreeing with you re: the range.

          There is money in NYC-LHR (it brings BA alone $1B in revenue annually) but the market for supersonic basically vanished. In the 70s when Concorde started flying, it was certainly a step up. However, the market niche basically disappeared when the lie flat seat was developed; for a lot cheaper, you could have a sleep for six hours in a really cushy lie flat, or you could spend a crapton more to be in a much louder, more cramped cabin for only about three hours less. If you were halving a 12-16 hour journey instead, there would still be a market left, but Concorde just didn't have the ability to do so.

          • mckn1ght 15 minutes ago
            You can also essentially work remotely in an airplane now. I haven’t tried videoconferencing, but I easily do all my other software work on trips. So a couple extra hours might even be a benefit: more time with no distractions to wrap up that slide deck, maybe a 1:1 or two, get your free drinks from premium/business class, doze off to a movie, wake up for an early start at your destination.
      • gottorf 1 hour ago
        > Dubai to SFO is also a possible route

        Is there really that much premium traffic between Dubai and the Bay Area?

        • bobthepanda 54 minutes ago
          The Middle East (was) a pretty common stopover for India flights, since India's not that well connected to the US due to a lack of capacity.
        • WorldPeas 1 hour ago
          I think the more interesting question is /will/ there be that much premium traffic ongoing
      • wat10000 53 minutes ago
        Everyone thought SSTs were going to be the next big thing. Both the US and USSR had projects. The 747 got a hump so it could easily be converted to a freighter once it was made obsolete by supersonic passenger planes.

        Despite two superpowers making the attempt, and plenty of time for more tries since then, Concorde is the only one that came even remotely close to something commercially viable.

        I’m sure there’s a market for California to China in five hours. But is it enough to support a whole new type of aircraft? Fuel burn is going to be enormous. Maintenance on something so cutting edge will be extremely expensive. Tickets would probably cost more than a private room on a widebody.

        • stouset 21 minutes ago
          You’re hinting at another huge part of the issue.

          There are no economies of scale to be had here. If there are only a handful of plausible economically-profitable routes, all of the expenditures on R&D, testing, certification, and production facilities can only be amortized across a handful of aircraft.

          Once you’ve built a dozen or two of them and a handful of extra engines and spare parts… what then? There’s no point in keeping the production lines open.

          From an airline’s perspective, they have to now have an entire separate chain of employees (pilots, mechanics) dedicated to another airframe that barely makes up a fraction of their fleet. That’s a lot of overhead for two or three routes.

          Those are some pretty big structural disadvantages that need to be overcome in order to make a boutique supersonic route appealing.

      • VerifiedReports 1 hour ago
        ORD -> Vatican
    • amanaplanacanal 19 minutes ago
      I think the SpaceX plan for point to point travel might be even more pie in the sky. Or maybe a tie.
    • rdl 1 hour ago
      Vastly more favorable today than it was when Concorde flew.

      1) Rich people are WAY richer, and time is even more valuable 2) Businesses have some very important employees and "2 day trip" vs "3-4 day trip" is worth $50-100k 3) Larger population of people able to pay $20-30k for a flight than ever before.

      The biggest practical impact is there's probably going to be a private jet version instead of just a commercial one, and there will likely be transpacific demand exceeding transatlantic. Also government/military use.

      • deadbabe 49 minutes ago
        What are some examples of employees so important you would pay $100k to get them somewhere immediately?
        • infecto 34 minutes ago
          You are not thinking high enough the food chain. I mean heck you have tenured SV engineers cracking $1mm with RSUs. It’s not rare in finance for folks to be hitting $3-5mm with bonus. So that’s what $19k comp a day. If that individual is making $5mm they are more than likely making a multiple of that for the organization.
          • bobthepanda 30 minutes ago
            Even these days, a lot of retailers operate fleets of private jets even for district or regional managers, because it saves somebody like Walmart a lot of paid hours to fly someone from rural town A to rural town B rather than potentially deal with the hassle of an overnight booking at an airport hub.
        • Nesco 40 minutes ago
          American execs negotiating memory two months ago in Korea?
    • HNisCIS 1 hour ago
      Whenever you look at supersonic or hypersonic commercial aircraft plans you should assume one of two things.

      A. It's a bait and switch by a founder who wants to pivot to weapons/military aircraft but wants to be able to hire high grade talent without paying the "we're gonna kill people" premium, can pivot once a good chunk of the workforce is complacent with a paycheck. You laugh but this happens SO FUCKING MUCH.

      B. It's for business jet scale operations for billionaires. There are >3000 billionaires and however many corporate aviation departments and if you can build a super/hypersonic private jet that's not horribly expensive to operate the "time savings"* for that class of person will demand they buy one.

      * when I say time savings I mean dick measuring contest

      • nradov 1 hour ago
        Defense contractors don't pay premium wages. Rather the opposite. Many employees specifically want to work in the field in order to contribute to the national security mission.
        • HNisCIS 1 hour ago
          I'm being a bit obtuse here to make the point, it's more complicated than that. The reality is if you create a defense startup you end up hiring defense employees which comes with its own set of issues.

          That said, go look at salaries right now in the defense space.

          • picture 1 hour ago
            From my experience with working for defense/aerospace companies as well as civilian b2b ones in the US, the general situation is that defense/aero companies pay less but demands less of a grind. People usually take the lower pay (usually 70% of equivalent role in commercial sector) for the better culture
            • HNisCIS 1 hour ago
              For pure generic full-stack-whatever devs yes. For EEs, embedded, FPGA, RF, etc you can pull waaaaay more in the defense world, especially if you're willing to do cleared work.
              • nine_k 56 minutes ago
                But if you need clearance to do your work, how can it be bait-and-switch? You need to hire people who are able and willing to obtain a clearance.
                • bigfatkitten 28 minutes ago
                  And have work that allows employees to keep their existing clearances active.
                • HNisCIS 47 minutes ago
                  Two different discussions, but I've had an earthy crunchy employer ask me to put in for one once.
      • Seattle3503 1 hour ago
        What companies are examples of that bait and switch strategy?
        • nine_k 55 minutes ago
          Google tried to become a national security contractor, and the backlash among the engineers was very intense.
        • Onavo 1 hour ago
          Can't give any examples but I have definitely heard the same about a lot of aerospace startups through the grapevine. As for OP's point about private jets, Boom supersonic is your classic example.
        • HNisCIS 1 hour ago
          I can't name names but 3 of the startups I've worked at.

          Places I haven't worked:

          Skydio

          Applied Intuition

          Saildrone

          Planet Labs

          Boom

          Scale AI

          Also worth noting that sometimes it's on purpose, sometimes the founders are all "we're gonna save the world" then AFWERX enters the chat with a big fucking check and the founders yell "Nevermind! Guess we're the baddies now! How many slaughterbots did you say?"

      • Grosvenor 1 hour ago
        > * when I say time savings I mean dick measuring contest

        And in this case smaller is better?

    • loeg 1 hour ago
      Safety should probably also be considered.
  • nubinetwork 9 minutes ago
    I've always wanted someone to bring back the Avro Arrow to use the Iroquois engine for freight, but I don't think anyone has the knowledge to even pull it off anymore.
  • atoav 2 hours ago
    The actual time to skim off IMO is all the airport procedures.
    • whiplash451 1 hour ago
      This is already a solved problem for the class of customers they are going after.
    • wat10000 48 minutes ago
      Not necessarily for extremely long haul flights. The airport side of things takes about the same amount of time regardless. For a transpacific flight, you’re looking at maybe 3-4 hours at the airport and 10+ hours in the air. Shaving down the airport side would be nice but a faster plane could save a lot more time.
  • Padriac 57 minutes ago
    I imagine passengers will be exposed to very high noise levels during flight.
    • BurningFrog 47 minutes ago
      I don't have a good intuitive feel for that.

      At 25km altitude, with 1% of normal atmosphere, maybe you're close enough to vacuum that it can get really quiet?

      • pdonis 33 minutes ago
        The engine noise can still be conducted through the body of the plane. With the kind of ramjet being talked about, I think that's still likely to be significant even at very high altitude.
  • superkuh 2 hours ago
    >At that elevation at Mach‑5, air around the nose and leading edges can reach temperatures exceeding 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,832°F), a challenge...

    It is not the conical nose or leading edges that are the show stopper problem(s). There the shockwave generally does not touch the craft. The internal shockwaves that touch the walls of the engine ducting are. The heat loading and heat soak ability on those shockwave impingement sites will limit the duration of hypersonic travel.

    Hypersonic travel through the atmosphere is easy, a problem solved in the 1950s. Be conical and carry your oxygen internally. Hypersonic travel that is air-breathing is an entirely different class of problem and I don't think it is anywhere near to being solved.

    The only silver lining is that at hypersonic speeds you don't need to be propulsive for very long to get anywhere.

  • holoduke 2 hours ago
    What would a ticket cost like? 50k? Aren't those people in their own fancy private jet with whiskey, massages and party?
    • Ekaros 2 hours ago
      Or have their own room in first class... Maybe time trade off isn't worth it for most of the people who can afford it at that point.
  • Insimwytim 58 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • domoregood 1 hour ago
    Ahh, but can it run DOOM...?
  • rbanffy 2 hours ago
    People say this like it's a simple engineering problem.

    No. By itself, a new hypersonic engine can't make 2-hour flights between Japan and the US a reality. We are not even close to being able to build an aircraft that can do that - we don't even have the materials for that. What seems "easier" (as in "less impossible") is a hypersonic glider design that enters a suborbital trajectory and does shuttle-like aerobraking while it glides to its destination, before reengaging propulsion prior to landing on an airstrip (because passenger planes need to be able to abort landings and do multiple attempts). Not sure how reverse thrust would work there - variable geometry rocket bells?

    • kelseyfrog 56 minutes ago
      How long of a weightlessness period does this entail?
      • nine_k 40 minutes ago
        Maybe not complete weightlessness, because at 80-90 km the atmospheric drag is still noticeable. But it should be enough of a unique experience.