31 comments

  • 0xbadcafebee 57 minutes ago
    These posts are going to be a constant for the next year, because there's no objective way to compare models (past low-level numbers like token generation speed, average reasoning token amount, # of parameters, active experts, etc). They're all quite different in a lot of ways, they're used for many different things by different people, and they're not deterministic. So you're constantly gonna see benchmarks and tests and proclamations of "THIS model beat THAT model!", with people racing around trying to find the best one.

    But there is no best one. There's just the best one for you, based on whatever your criteria is. It's likely we'll end up in a "Windows vs MacOS vs Linux" style world, where people stick to their camps that do a particular thing a particular way.

    • ljlolel 5 minutes ago
      Then useful to be able to easily switch between them with one billing like on https://trustedrouter.com/ (which I made)
    • verve_rat 8 minutes ago
      My theory is we will end up in a similar spot to hiring people. You can look at a CV (benchmarks) but you won't know for sure until you've worked with them for six months.

      We as an industry cannot determine if one software engineer is objectively better than another, on practically any dimension, so why do we think we can come to an objective ranking of models?

  • kmkrworks 1 minute ago
    I don't feel like this is an optimal way of comparing models. I really don't think any metric as of now has the ability to list down the best model as of now. It prioritizes tasks over the overall ability, and I don't even think it's possible to.
  • ninjahawk1 33 minutes ago
    At the current rate, open sourced models are expected to surpass cloud models within a couple years based on a study I read a couple days ago.

    Looking back at chatGPT and claude a couple years ago, very small Qwen models are basically equal in coding to what those cloud based models could do then. Also factoring in scaling laws, a 9b going to 18b is roughly a 40% increase, whereas 18b to 35b is 20%, I expect there will be a change of at least price in cloud based models.

    Adobe used to be $600 per month, then it became $20 when distribution scaled.

    • baxtr 29 minutes ago
      While this might be true I’m worried about the hardware side of things.

      What if you have a good enough model but the cloud model providers are better in procuring hardware for interference?

      • zozbot234 13 minutes ago
        The cloud providers are probably better at procuring hardware for inference, but on prem users are better at repurposing hardware that they'd need anyway for their existing uses. In a world where AI compute is likely inherently scarce, it makes sense to rely on both.
      • Gigachad 10 minutes ago
        You’ll be able to run the open models on any cloud at the cost of the hardware rental. While the closed models will try to mark up beyond the base cost.
      • gleenn 19 minutes ago
        Local inference is definitely going to make more and more sense. Modern CPUs have all this amazing hardware well-optimized for inference purposes. I use a lot of web tools and see AI baked in and it feels weird. I want the smartness localized for speed and data security. I think and hope the industry points towards smart ai agents operating as locally as possible.
    • Traubenfuchs 14 minutes ago
      What were all the datacenters for???
  • gertlabs 1 hour ago
    I'm glad we're seeing a shift towards objectively scored tests.

    We've been doing this at scale at https://gertlabs.com/rankings, and although the author looks to be running unique one-off samples, it's not surprising to see how well Kimi K2.6 performed. Based on our testing, for coding especially, Kimi is within statistical uncertainty of MiMo V2.5 Pro for top open weights model, and performs much better with tools than DeepSeek V4 Pro.

    GPT 5.5 has a comfortable lead, but Kimi is on par with or better than Opus 4.6. The problem with Kimi 2.6 is that it's one of the slower models we've tested.

    • veber-alex 52 minutes ago
      In my experience benchmarks are pretty meaningless.

      Not only is performance dependent on the language and tasks gives but also the prompts used and the expected results.

      In my own internal tests it was really hard to judge whether GPT 5.5 or Opus 4.7 is the better model.

      They have different styles and it's basically up to preference. There where even times where I gave the win to one model only to think about it more and change my mind.

      At the end of the day I think I slightly prefer Opus 4.7.

      • magicalhippo 1 minute ago
        [delayed]
      • gertlabs 27 minutes ago
        I think benchmarks are improving and will always have value, but it's the equivalent to someone's college and GPA for an entry level job application.

        It's a strong signal for a job, but the soft skills are sometimes going to get Claude Opus 4.6 a job over smarter applicants. That's what we'd really like to measure objectively, and are actively working on.

    • bazlightyear 49 minutes ago
      Are you tests and results open source?
      • gertlabs 36 minutes ago
        Test result summaries are openly available, test environments are not.
    • refulgentis 47 minutes ago
      Any thoughts on using it on Fireworks? It's extremely fast there.
      • gertlabs 37 minutes ago
        I'm not sure how many of our requests got routed to Fireworks -- for our testing, we set preferences for routing to providers with the highest advertised quantizations / highest reasoning mode support / or preferably the model developer itself.

        While it may be possible to get better numbers from certain providers, we try to establish a common baseline. I.e. if we measure that Kimi K2.6 averages 450s on a task and GLM 5.1 averages 400s, you might be able to improve that number on a provider like Fireworks but GLM 5.1 would also likely be 10% faster on the premium provider. This is a caveat worth considering when comparing to proprietary model speeds on the site, though.

  • sieve 49 minutes ago
    Kimi is really good.

    I have been using Sonnet and others (DeepSeek, ChatGPT, MiniMax, Qwen) for my compiler/vm project and the Claude Pro plan is mostly unusable for any serious coding effort. So I use it in chat mode in the browser where it cannot needlessly read your entire project, and use Kimi on the OpenCode Go plan with pi.

    Kimi consistently exceeded Sonnet on the C+Python project. Never had to worry about it doing anything other than what I asked it to do. GLM crapped the bed once or twice. Kimi never did.

  • magicalhippo 1 hour ago
    In a single challenge, measured by how performant the solution was.

    Kimi K2.6 is definitely a frontier-sized model, so on the one hand it's not that surprising it's up there with the closed frontier models.

    Being open is nice though, even though it doesn't matter that much for folks like me with a single consumer GPU.

    • lelanthran 11 minutes ago
      > Being open is nice though, even though it doesn't matter that much for folks like me with a single consumer GPU.

      The value of open source is not that you will run it locally, it's that anyone can run it at all.

      Even if you can't afford to purchase the hardware to run large open source models, someone would, price it at half the cost of the closed source models and still make a profit.

      The only reason you are not seeing that happen right now is because the current front-running token-providers have subsidised their inference costs.

      The minute they start their enshittification the market for alternatives becomes viable. Without open-source models, there will never be a viable alternative.

      Even if they wanted to charge only 80% of what a developer costs, the existence of open source models that are not far behind is a forcing function on them. There is no moat for them.

    • DeathArrow 1 hour ago
      >Being open is nice though, even though it doesn't matter that much for folks like me with a single consumer GPU.

      Of course it matters because that makes coding plans much cheaper than those from Anthropic and OpenAI.

      For personal use I have coding plans with GLM 5.1, Kimi K2.6, MiniMax M2.7 and Xiaomi MiMo V2.5 Pro and I am getting a lot of bang for the buck.

      • magicalhippo 1 hour ago
        Currently it's not a huge difference given the subsidies of closed model subscriptions. Once that stops then yea it will be really nice to have open models as price competitors.
        • smj-edison 16 minutes ago
          At least in my experience switching from Claude Pro ($20/month) to Kimi 2.6 through ollama (also $20/month), I was almost always hitting my usage limit with Sonnet 4.6, but with ollama I haven't hit my usage a single time.
    • keyle 1 hour ago
      It absolutely does matter.

      The enshittification will go unnoticed at first but I'm already finding my favourite frontier models severely nerfed, doing incredibly dumb stuff they weren't in the past.

      We need open weight models to have a stable "platform" when we rely on them, which we do more and more.

      • magicalhippo 1 hour ago
        Most people won't roll out their own K2 deployment across rented GPUs, so in that sense it doesn't matter that much, they'll be using a paid service which is just as much of a black box as Claude or ChatGPT. For example, on OpenRouter you can select a provider which state they use a given open model, but you have no idea what actually goes on behind the curtains, which quantization levels they use and so on.

        That said, I do fully agree that it is valuable to have open near-frontier models, as a balance to the closed ones.

        • slopinthebag 1 hour ago
          It's not really a black box. Useful models becoming fungible is crucial for disincentivizing bad behaviour with model providers. I can't really overstate how different it is from relying on closed models. If you don't like or trust any of the providers on OpenRouter you can rent the GPUs yourself and host it, although this is probably unnecessary.
    • echelon 1 hour ago
      This is the future though. Open weights models that run on H200s provide far more opportunity to build products and real infrastructure around.

      You can always distill this for your little RTX at home. But models shaped for consumer hardware will never win wide adoption or remain competitive with frontier labs.

      This is something that _can_ compete. And it will both necessitate and inspire a new generation of open cloud infra to run inference. "Push button, deploy" or "Push button, fine tune" shaped products at the start, then far more advanced products that only open weights not locked behind an API can accomplish.

      Now we just need open weights Nano Banana Pro / GPT Image 2, and Seedance 2.0 equivalents.

      The battle and focus should be on open weights for the data center.

      • zozbot234 30 minutes ago
        These large MoE models can work quite well on consumer or prosumer platforms, they'll just be slow, and you have to offset that by running them unattended around the clock. (Something that you can't really do with large SOTA models without spending way too much on tokens.) This actually works quite well for DeepSeek V4 series which has comparatively tiny KV-cache sizes so even a consumer platform can run big batches in parallel.
      • bitmasher9 1 hour ago
        I don’t fully understand what open weights unlocks that cannot be accomplished via API from a product standpoint.

        Open weights is great if you want to do additional training, or if you need on-prem for security.

        • mkl 1 hour ago
          Multiple providers of the same model. That means competition for price, reliability, latency, etc. It also means you can use the same model as long as you want, instead of having it silently change behaviour.
        • stldev 1 hour ago
          Or try to beat Anthropic's uptime.
        • echelon 47 minutes ago
          > Open weights is great if you want to do additional training, or if you need on-prem for security.

          The power of giving universities, companies, and hackers "full" models should not be understated.

          Here are a just a few ideas for image, video, and creative media models:

          - Suddenly you're not "blocked" for entire innocuous prompts. This is a huge issue.

          - You can fine tune the model to learn/do new things. A lighting adjustment model, a pose adjustment model. You can hook up the model to mocap, train it to generate plates, etc.

          - You can fine tune it on your brand aesthetic and not have it washed out.

    • joshoink 1 hour ago
      [flagged]
  • ponyous 12 minutes ago
    Kimi is nowhere near GPT or Opus unfortunately. I really wish it was. I’m running evals where models have to generate code that produces 3D models and it’s obvious that it lacks spatial understanding and makes many more code errors before it succeeds.

    Maybe it’s better in one particular case here and there and I think this blog post is example of that.

  • slashdave 1 hour ago
    I was surprised by the ranking, until I read what the test was. Not horribly relevant for coding.

    The current ranking of all tests makes more sense (well, except for how well Gemini does)

    https://aicc.rayonnant.ai

  • wg0 14 minutes ago
    About 40% of stock market consists of about 7 or 8 companies. Those companies that are all into AI circular deals collectively trillions of dollars in valuations.

    Now imagine a company burning 200,000/month on AI spend. Real numbers. Not every company is but some are.

    Why such a company won't deploy an open weight model (Kimi 2.6 or Deepseek v4) on their own hardware (rented or otherwise) to save about 2.4 million dollars a year?

    And these are the landmines Chinese cleverly did set up. Not saying intentionally or otherwise.

    But end result is that good luck recouping your investments, you can pretty much kiss goodbye to any ROI. The bucket has a hole at the bottom and the bubble bust is guaranteed.

    PS: Without open weight models too the economics do not make sense neither the code generated by these SOTA models is reliable enough to be deployed as is. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't worked on a real software stack with real users OR didn't use AI long enough to witness the AI slop and how hard it is to untangle or de-slopify the AI generated code therefore these trillion dollar valuations are absurd anyway.

  • aykutseker 1 hour ago
    This seems less like Kimi is better at coding than Claude and more like Kimi found the right strategy for this particular game.

    Still interesting though. The fact that an open weight model is close enough for that to matter is probably the real story.

  • bazlightyear 22 minutes ago
    BTW it looks like Kimi won the subsequent challenge too https://aicc.rayonnant.ai/challenges/hexquerques/
  • jrecyclebin 1 hour ago
    I absolutely love Kimi's personality - some of the things it says are so out there! And it's been great for very focused, iterative work.

    Its weakness is that it seems to yak on-and-on when it needs to plan out something big or read through and make sense of how to use a niche piece of a complex library. To the point where it can fill up its 256k window - and rack up a build. (No cache.) I have had better experience with GLM 5.1 in those cases.

    Anyone out there relate?

  • imrozim 19 minutes ago
    Same experience here i use open router with claude as fallback for my startup. Is Kimi if close in quality the cost is difference hard to ignore
  • PedroBatista 1 hour ago
    Great to know, but what was the cost both in terms of $$ and tokens used?

    Not to invalidate these benchmark results because they are useful, but the real usefulness it what they are capable to do when real people interact with them at scale.

    Regardless, these are good news, because now that Microsoft is basically giving up their all-in strategy with Github's Copilot and Anthropic is playing the "I'm too good for you" game, it's about time for them to get pressed into not making this AI world into a divide between the haves and the have-nots.

    • keyle 1 hour ago
      Re pricing. Never as high as frontier commercial models.
      • CryptoBanker 33 minutes ago
        You’d be surprised with some long running complex tasks. I’ve seen Kimi spend 8 minutes (total) thinking on a task that Claude got done in 30 seconds. They both ultimately got it right, but Kimi spent ~$2.25 to Claude’s ~$0.20
  • justech 1 hour ago
    I’ve been maining Kimi k2.6 through opencode go and openrouter for a week and I can say it’s the same experience as when I was maining Sonnet 3.5/4 late last year.

    Not as good or as fast as Claude Code on Opus now but definitely enough for casual/hobby use. The best part is multiple choices for providers, if opencode gimps their service, I’ll switch

  • SomaticPirate 1 hour ago
    This seems to be testing the models on leetcode style prompts that also require the model to implement TCP calls to send the results. Interesting but probably not a apples to apples comparison. The fact only Grok qualified for the first one seems suspect
  • Frannky 1 hour ago
    I have to try Kimi. I was looking for an alternative. If you have any experience, advice, please share. I saw Kimi is at the top of the Open Router ranking.
    • zorked 1 hour ago
      I use Kimi at home via a kimi.com subscription and Kimi CLI (sometimes running inside Zed, sometimes not). My favorite model by far. And it's just $20.

      I have to use a supposedly frontier model at work and I hate it.

      • Frannky 1 hour ago
        Nice, thanks for sharing!
    • DeathArrow 1 hour ago
      Kimi K2.6 is great but I advice you to get a coding plan from Kimi.com as that way is much cheaper than paying for API calls using OpenRouter.
      • Frannky 1 hour ago
        Thanks, I am trying it right now. I had an opencode plan 5$/month, so I will play with that. I use ZED and I added Pi ACP, so I can try the both pi and Kimi. I will also try it in opencode and via Kimi code.
        • prvnsmpth 1 hour ago
          Use kimi 2.6 for planning and a cheap model (preferably local) for execution, and then kimi once again for reviewing it. Then finally I review the code. Saves a lot on tokens.
          • Frannky 41 minutes ago
            Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I am testing it with Pi in Zed and it seems pretty good.
  • koala-news 40 minutes ago
    In my opinion, this kind of comparison is not very meaningful.
  • elromulous 1 hour ago
    Is the site just slashdotted rn? Can anyone get to it?
    • brettgo1 55 minutes ago
      Slashdot... Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. A long time.
  • plexescor 46 minutes ago
    I always though claude is the goat, but i guess its time to change the notion and try Kimi K2.6
  • jakemanger 1 hour ago
    What's the GPU VRAM requirements for this thing?

    Awesome to have a open model that can compete, but damn it would be so much better if you could run it locally. Otherwise, it's almost so difficult to run (e.g. self host) that it's just way more convenient to pay OpenAI, Claude, etc

    • DeathArrow 1 hour ago
      >Otherwise, it's almost so difficult to run (e.g. self host) that it's just way more convenient to pay OpenAI, Claude, etc

      Getting a coding plan from Kimi.com will make coding 20x cheaper than using Anthropic.

      BTW, I am using it with Claude Code.

    • redrove 55 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • beering 1 hour ago
    I’m a little confused as to the setup. It was asking each model to one-shot a script and then the scripts faced off? Were the models given a computer environment? Or a test server to iterate against?
    • rpmisms 1 hour ago
      Sounds incredibly simple to me. One-shot.
      • beering 1 hour ago
        So nothing like real-world coding, where you’d be able to run and test the script before submitting?
        • procinct 56 minutes ago
          One shot just means the user doesn’t have to iterate on it via the agent. The agent does what ever it needs to deliver the best outcome, including its own running and iteration until it’s happy with it. This could be a short or long process potentially depending on the task.
  • pbreit 1 hour ago
    All my co-workers say Claude blows away Gemini. Is it really that good? How can I do Kimi?
    • prvnsmpth 1 hour ago
      You can sign up for a plan on the kimi code platform and use it via the pi.dev coding agent, or opencode. In planning, I’d say it’s almost on par with Claude Opus.
  • walrus01 50 minutes ago
    People thinking to self-host Kimi K2.6 had better be prepared for how big it is.

    Q8 K XL quantization for instance is around 600GB on disk. I would bet about 700GB of VRAM needed.

    Quantizations lower than Q8 are probably worthless for quality.

    Or 2.05TB on disk for the full precision GGUF.

    https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Kimi-K2.6-GGUF

    If you can afford the hardware to run Kimi K2.6 at any decent speed for more than 1 simultaneous user, you probably have a whole team of people on staff who are already very familiar with how to benchmark it vs Claude, GPT-5.5, etc.

    • zozbot234 43 minutes ago
      Kimi is a natively quantized model, the lossless full precision release is 595GB. Your own link mentions that.
      • CamperBob2 26 minutes ago
        So, realistically, $100K for an 8x RTX 6000 Pro system that can run it at a usable rate.
        • zozbot234 16 minutes ago
          I think people will always disagree on what qualifies as a "usable rate". But keep in mind that practically no one sensible is running the latest Opus or GPT around the clock, especially not at sustainable, unsubsidized prices. With open-weights models it's easy to do that.
  • slopinthebag 55 minutes ago
    Amazing. To me it feels like GLM 5.1, Kimi 2.6, DeepSeek 4 are all competitive both with each other and with the American models. Truly a great time to be alive.

    I would like to see more effort making the flash variants work for coding. They are super economical to use to brute force boilerplate and drudgery, and I wonder just how good they can be with the right harness, if it provides the right UX for the steering they require.

    As much as vibe coding has captured the zeitgeist, I think long term using them as tools to generate code at the hands of skilled developers makes more sense. Companies can only go so long spending obscene amounts of money for subpar unmaintainable code.

  • ant6n 8 minutes ago
    What I would like to see is a comparison of how well the models work in kong running conversations:

      * do they lie and gaslight
    
      *  do they start breaking down on very long chats (forget old context, just get dumber)
    
      * do they constantly try to tell me how smart I am vs solving the problem (yes man)
    
      * do they follow conventions, parameters set out early in the prompts, or forget them
    
      * if they cant read a given file (like pdf), do they lie about it
    
      * what is the quality of the presentation of results (structure, wording, excessive use of tables, appropriate use of headings)
    
      * how does the bot deal with user frustration (empathy?)
    
    For example Chatpgt 5.5 is fairly smart, but presentation of results is kind of poor and unstructured, and unnecessarily long. It will break down on long conversations (the long answers dont help here), and it can’t deal with that except lying and gaslighting.
  • rvz 1 hour ago
    So we are now at the point where open weight models are rapidly catching up to the frontier models.

    They are at best 30 days behind, and at worst case 2 months behind. The last issue is being able to run the best one on conventional hardware without a rack of GPUs.

    The Macbooks, and Mac minis are behind on hardware but eventually in the next 2 years at worst will make it possible thanks to the advancements of the M-series machines.

    All of this is why companies like Anthropic feel like they have to use "safety" to stop you from running local models on your machine and get you hooked on their casino wasting tokens with a slot machine named Claude.

  • qakajjqj 59 minutes ago
    Yes gimini is a programming application
  • surrTurr 1 hour ago
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  • Rekindle8090 1 hour ago
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