I am astonished how many people now use speakerphone as their default interaction. On subway, go train, in grocery stores, on the streets, sometimes even in the office, they blast their conversations with zero care.
And so yes, I've definitely seen and experienced people watching inane tiktoks on speaker in subway or bus or airplane. It's the epitome of complete lack of empathy or self awareness to me, but I guess that's the way culture is going.
There are times you need speaker-phone mode. My parents almost always turn on speaker-phone when they call me because they both want to be part of the conversation. I don't think they will ever take a plane or a bus trip in their lives so their speaker-phone isn't going to hurt anyone.
It is - there are three groups of people that do this generally the completely self absorbed, people from places where it’s culturally acceptable, and people that like the feeling of empowerment that comes from a inconveniencing others (the same people that will walk out into traffic with no light / crosswalk)
Getting pedantic now but depending on the circumstances the traffic is supposed to have stopped for you.
Assuming there is no paint on the road an (unmarked) crosswalk may still exist [1] and drivers are supposed to yield to a pedestrian in a marked or unmarked crosswalk [2].
Getting more pedantic, less than 1pct of the population is in California.
Pretty clear parent meant people who cross against the light / mid-block when there is a crossing 50ft away / stepping in front of the one car on the road when they could look up for one second and step out behind that car etc. in other words the people who put off 'main character' vibes.
Depending on where you live it may not really be relatable to you, but living in NYC -- there are people that will intentionally jay walk on a green light and even _stare you down_ knowing that you will stop and let them pass.
People jay walk when there's no traffic all the time, that's totally fine. This is a totally different act of passive aggression.
In America, a small number of people derive pleasure from being disruptive to everybody, and blasting music on public transit with captive audiences is a very "traditional" way of fucking with people and expressing your broad contempt for their society. I'd estimate that maybe one in five times you get on a city bus in America, you'll encounter somebody like this.
Very rarely does anybody call them out or otherwise try to reign it in, because you're as likely as not to be physically attacked and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not great.
Pretty sure on planes this is more ignorance than malice. It’s self absorbed people that are too selfish to consider someone else might not want to hear what they’re watching, rather than some deliberate anti society thing.
Regardless, no punishment is too harsh, this should be considered the equivalent of lighting up a cigarette on a plane.
I'm not a fan of the tablet as a pacifier approach but it's not my business. What is my business is when the parents do so without providing a way for the child to indulge without annoying everybody else. I consider that to be absolutely unacceptable in that if they can afford a tablet they can afford cheap headphones.
I don’t know if anyone remembers the movie Inside Man where at the beginning they are waiting in line at the bank and the woman is having a loud conversation on her phone and the guard comes and tells here to keep it down. It’s this kind of person that I see not using speakers (when the movie was made I don’t think they contemplated humanity could sink that low), at best it’s entitlement, but I still think in most cases it boils down to not thinking about others vs actively trying to annoy them.
I experienced this in real life and this creature was unable to understand the bus driver telling her to stop. It's like they didn't understand English nor social signals. To me it seemed to stem from a lack of intelligence than from intentionally being malicious.
I am self-absorbed and devoid of empathy but it is still easy to logically deduce that other people don't want to hear my games, videos, or phone calls.
A lot of people don’t get a lot of things; you know the adage about stupidity being a more likely cause than malice. Just last week I had to explain to a grown adult why spitting on the sauna floor was disgusting and rude to the other gym members. He was shocked.
I don't think I'd have the wherewithal to jump in and do something if I were a bystander. I'm not the sort to throw hands, I don't carry, and these disruptive types are already a bit feral.
I'm not sure it's contempt they're expressing, or if they're expressing anything at all. There really are people who enjoy and defend it, too; "it's just a guy playing music, mind your own business." Truly alien.
I've found that looking the person in the eye and giving a quick "hey, forget your headphones?" sometimes does the trick, and has yet to start a fight. Everyone has to act in ways they are comfortable with - but mass inaction is what creates space for this shitty behavior in the first place.
Yes exactly. If they are blasting ethnic music while in an ethnic hood it is usually because they are repping their hood, and sometimes in a way to intentionally bait someone to say something. If you ask them to stop they will pretend it is a challenge on their hood/race (no matter that they will play it so loud everyone's ears are splitting and all they want is not to get hearing damage). I watched a guy pull out a knife and start slashing as soon as he was asked to stop.
If you ask such person to stop it is implied they expect you to back that up with violence and you've already consented to a battle.
My go-to technique has been to offer the offender a pair of headphones, saying something to insinuate that they must forgotten theirs or be too poor to afford them. Most of the time they say “oh I have headphones!” and then realize that they’ve outed themselves. (I stockpile the free headphones from gyms or airplanes, or get the $2 ones from AliExpress)
20%? That's a bit insane. This does happen in Europe but is heavily looked down up on and usually quickly corrected.
On the other hand I did get a chewing out from an older guy for having a conversation with friends on a train once, so some people take it perhaps a bit too serious.
It’s very much a thing on US public transit, with the added negative bonus that no one ever confronts the person doing it, because chances are they’re either crazy, armed, or both.
Sure, but also you might be on a city bus for... half an hour? It's not pleasant to have someone blast noise but it's nothing like a multi-hour flight. Why bother?
On something like public transit it's often a way of repping your ethnicity/hood. I've been caught in the middle of a knife fight on a California public train car because a guy was blasting Hispanic music intentionally as loud as he could while staring everyone down. Extremely painful (as in ear damaging loud) for everyone, but I didn't say anything because I knew exactly what bait he was laying.
The train car entered a black neighborhood, then a black guy informed him it was his hood and he better knock that shit off. Latino guy immediately pulled out a knife and started swinging.
I mean, you are painting it as some moralistic judgement, but if you’re asking me for on one hand listening to some annoying music, and on the other hand having some chance (however slight) of bodily injury, knife wound, or whatever… I know which one I am going to choose.
> and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not great
Yes, because there's been a recent push to more heavily punish good Samaritans than perpetrators. When good men get metaphorically crucified for helping, they stop helping.
If that seems like a common sense outcome of such policies, you're right. But as we've seen time and again, common sense is not a flower that grows in everyone's garden.
Yup. Eg guys getting on Thameslink services in south London, walking right up to the area behind the driver's cab and and start creating a disturbance. Driver stops the train and has a go at them if he's feeling in the mood...
>is a very "traditional" way of fucking with people and expressing your broad contempt for their society.
Motivated in large part as a response to society saying fuck them. I'm not defending assholes being assholes, but I think what we have been seeing in the US over the last 5 or 10 years is classic collapse of the social contract stuff. The less a society cares about its people the less its people will care about the rest of society.
I get what you're saying, but blasting music on buses has been a thing since boom-boxes were invented, it's nothing new. I am also not inclined to blame systems instead of individuals because most people with the same background of injustice will choose to respond to that injustice by being better than it. It's only a very small number of people being disruptive like this, while the number of people with fair and understandable grievances against society is massive.
>I get what you're saying, but blasting music on buses has been a thing since boom-boxes were invented, it's nothing new.
Yes, because people have always felt like outsiders in relation to society. My point was that this sort of public misbehaving is getting worse because social cohesion is getting even worse. Not everyone with grievances against society will respond this way, but as more people have grievances against society, more people will respond in a manner like this.
Last time I flew my family was very early to the gate; it was me, my wife, my 5 and 3 year old girls, and a very elderly lady in a wheelchair who was blasting Kendrick Lamar’s “Not Like Us” from her phone speakers.
It's a thing everywhere except very well-behaved places/countries. This means it's almost everywhere.
The last time I had an uncle blast his Doujin feed at full volume next to me, I suggested he lower the volume, he didn't care, so I blasted my own feed at louder volume. He got it then. Sadly people a few rows back did the same on the next train...
From what I can tell, if no rule is enforced, about 2-5% of people think it's totally normal to scroll tiktok or instagram at full volume in public.
So on a crowded bus you've normally got 1 or 2. Behavior is actually much better on airplanes, usually (maybe 1-2 in ~150 passenger plane), and I have never seen someone who did not silence their phone after being asked politely by the attendant.
Very much a thing and one of the many reasons I'm becoming more of a recluse, shared public spaces are becoming rather unpleasant. Mostly in the US and LatAm, a fair amount in the UK, not so much in Germany.
That's because in Europe certain demographics don't catch many planes or trains. But they do catch the tube or the bus, so get on one of those and enjoy the experience.
Lol was wondering how long I would have to scroll before someone pointed out the obvious. People talking about the "collapse of the societal contract", like I wonder how that happened....
My experience is the opposite. People blast music or other sounds on flights all the time.
In Europe it's also very common to smoke in public, including beaches, restaurants, areas around building entrances. Literring is also very common.
Even Switzerland is dirty because cigarette buts are everywhere. It's just that some % of the population are inconsiderate assholes and only heavy enforcement works vs than. Unfortunately this is something our current society is not willing to do.
I've definitely experienced this on public transit in cities in several different countries here in Europe. It's not an everyday experience, but it definitely happens.
Now explain why it wouldn’t also be fair to kick people off that were loudly emitting disgusting flatulence. Is it because they “might” not have control over it? Can I not claim I also “might” not have the control over my impulsive desire to listen to music or that I can’t use headphones for a medical issue?
I mean such a thing I would say equally detracts from the flying experience, so why not also kick those people off?
Edit: not sure why I’m getting downvoted, this is a legitimate question. I genuinely want to hear the justification.
You'd have a more convincing argument if you argued for a passenger with Tourette's or something. Bodily functions are obviously different from watching a movie at full volume, because there's never a situation where you would be involuntarily blasting the audio of your show or whatever to the whole plane.
Okay, Tourette’s then. Should we kick people off for Tourette’s?
Your comment also presupposes two things: that flatulence is always involuntary and blasting music isn’t. Let’s say I have a form of Tourette’s that forces me to involuntarily blast noise and music and I have medical papers to prove it. Is it okay then?
I would absolutely support it if you could demonstrate that those two things are actually true. My point is: Who gets to decide what’s legitimately an involuntary medical issue and what isn’t, and where is the line that demarcates it? And what is the point of this exercise? It’s to prevent people from forcing everyone else to have a worse experience for their own personal gain, which flatulence is a form of that you could argue, so why is blasting music fundamentally different?
FUN FACT: Aviation rules require that any plane carrying a parachute must have at least one for every person on board. Hopefully the reason is obvious.
Now given that, do you really want to pay the extra cost of flying with 300 parachutes just so mr-full-volume-phone can have one?
Either you missed the joke or I missed your sarcasm. I read GP as a joke: being literally kicked out of a flight in air is a death sentence, which is a bit harsh penalty indeed.
I got a SARS virus flying to Udon Thani in 2019. We were seated next to two thai guys who were so sick they could barely sit up straight. We offered them help and treats because they looked like they were about to vomit.
Plane lands, next day I'm sick. I was laid up for 2 weeks with fever, the shits, and I had a weird spontaneous cough for over 1 month after I got better.
I bet most of that plane got sick, and it was so damn avoidable.
The problem is there can he huge penalties for not flying when you booked. You might not be able to rebook your flight or hotel or days off so you're stuck either getting everyone sick or perhaps being out thousands of dollars or not going on vacation at all.
A disinforming clickbait headline strikes again. This isn't about it being mandatory to use headphones, ala TNG "The Game". Rather it's about using speakers that broadcast sound for everyone to "enjoy". I haven't been molested and crushed^w^w^w^wflown in quite some time, but with the noise floor on airplanes being so high to begin with I'd imagine the result is much worse than somewhere that is at least quieter to start.
Of course they do - they modified their contract of carriage - which you basically agree to why buy a flight (https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.html) it’s the same mechanism they use to deny you boarding if you are barefoot etc.
It didn't really work well with cigs until govs started banning smoking in restaurants, bars, etc. That said, the shaming was important for setting the social stage for such legal bans.
Shaming doesn’t always work. I’ve asked politely and been threatened in return by people that look dangerous. That made me want to avoid confrontation in the future.
I often see younger people in parks near me blasting loud music on speakers. It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful place. Especially when they’re playing explicit rap music with everyone’s families and children around.
Yeah or people on bikes with a boombox. They do it because it's illegal to cycle with earphones in in these parts. But it creates its own problem of course.
I wonder if shoulder mounted speakers that aren't touching the users ears could help resolve this to everybody's reasonable satisfaction. (That is, everybody who's not deliberately trying to broadcast their music to everybody else.)
> It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful place
Idk, they’re not looking for “a peaceful place” and are using a public space without damaging it. Nobody is forced to use the park at the same time as them. This seems like a difference in preferences which is fine.
That same line of reasoning could apply to music on planes. No one really needs to use a particular airline at a particular time or use a public park at any given time. It ceases to be a public place if a small group of people can de facto monopolize it by making it unpleasant for most other people to be there.
James Q. Wilson talked about this problem a long time ago... and why standard neighborhood shaming cannot really police it. Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations which is why you have a breakdown in manners and even high school kids from affluent areas hitting "devious licks."
Because the sanctions employed are subtle, informal, and delicate, not everyone is equally vulnerable to everyone else’s discipline. Furthermore, if there is not a generally shared agreement as to appropriate standards of conduct, these sanctions will be inadequate to correct such deviations as occur. A slight departure from a norm is set right by a casual remark; a commitment to a different norm is very hard to alter, unless, of course, the deviant party is “eager to fit in,” in which case he is not committed to the different norm at all but simply looking for signs as to what the preferred norms may be.
> same line of reasoning could apply to music on planes
You can’t leave a plane. And planes aren’t for recreation. I like quiet parks. But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade. I’m okay with other people having different thoughts on how to recreate.
> Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations
Older people have been complaining about kids with boomboxes and skateboards for generations.
One person playing loud music makes the park less enjoyable for thirty people around them. That’s not “preferences”, when their method of consuming the public space affects the way everyone around them experiences it.
There are typically noise rules at most parks where I live. The people who "blast loud music" are breaking the rules, and annoying everyone else at the park. That's not cool, and they should get kicked out if they don't comply.
I was recently in Hawaii in the middle of the forest and this group nearby on the trail were blasting music from a bluetooth speaker. Whether it is compelte lack of self awareness or utter disregard for other people it is just disturbing behavior.
I agree with the policy but this is such a mild offense. Just a few years ago in the US there was an epidemic of drunk people savagely beating flight attendants.
People who cannot figure out how to share use of shared space should lose access to those places.
Yes and no. I don't want to be a Karen, but also I think it's fair to not cause discomfort to others. Imagine if every flight was as noisy a city intersection. For 5 hours. And you can't hide.
Airlines have been quietly expanding what they can remove you for. This isn't really about headphones. It's about how much discretion crew have now and how little recourse you have at 35,000 feet.
Look... if me and 199 other passengers are going to abide by restrictions we were informed about before we paid any money for a ticket, it's completely unfair that the authorities make an exception for one passenger who accepted the same contract we all did.
Arrest them on board, handcuff them and lead them away in handcuffs at the destination. No sympathy from me, especially since the only way the handcuffs route is going to happen is if the passenger in questions ignores the instructions from the flight crew.
I also have to note that on most flights, whether domestic or international, the it's already a criminal offence to ignore an instruction from the flight crew. The airline here did not need to make publish a new rule, they could have simply had the flight crew inform the annoying passenger.
The airlines could alway remove you for literally any reason. Even if it was discriminatory or otherwise illegal, you'd still definitely be getting off the plane, at least.
The ones with limited recourse are the flight crew who are trapped with you and a hundred other asshole for hours with no escape and very limited options in case of a serious disruption. If there is one space that has justification to act as temporary dictatorship, it's an aircraft in flight.
You might blame the airlines, but passengers have become more rude and entitled year after year. It's really everywhere now, not just on airplanes. I personally am fine with removing passengers who think they are entitled to annoy the rest of us when we can't just get up and leave the place.
Edit: We seem to have entitled assholes in this thread, from the downvotes I'm getting.
I never been in a flight, or train across Europe where passengers showed just lack of respect for the others.
The only ones pumping anything loud, on trains or busses, usually get quickly pointed down by other passengers, personal or security.
Ah, and then there are the rebellious kids or gangs, as the other exception, which usually don't take flights anyway.
And so yes, I've definitely seen and experienced people watching inane tiktoks on speaker in subway or bus or airplane. It's the epitome of complete lack of empathy or self awareness to me, but I guess that's the way culture is going.
They said “walk out into traffic.” That’s rude. You should wait for a signal or a break in the flow so nobody has to brake for you.
Assuming there is no paint on the road an (unmarked) crosswalk may still exist [1] and drivers are supposed to yield to a pedestrian in a marked or unmarked crosswalk [2].
[1]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....
[2]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
Pretty clear parent meant people who cross against the light / mid-block when there is a crossing 50ft away / stepping in front of the one car on the road when they could look up for one second and step out behind that car etc. in other words the people who put off 'main character' vibes.
People jay walk when there's no traffic all the time, that's totally fine. This is a totally different act of passive aggression.
Very rarely does anybody call them out or otherwise try to reign it in, because you're as likely as not to be physically attacked and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not great.
Regardless, no punishment is too harsh, this should be considered the equivalent of lighting up a cigarette on a plane.
On topic (and discussed already on HN): https://github.com/Pankajtanwarbanna/stfu
I'm not sure it's contempt they're expressing, or if they're expressing anything at all. There really are people who enjoy and defend it, too; "it's just a guy playing music, mind your own business." Truly alien.
If you ask such person to stop it is implied they expect you to back that up with violence and you've already consented to a battle.
On the other hand I did get a chewing out from an older guy for having a conversation with friends on a train once, so some people take it perhaps a bit too serious.
The train car entered a black neighborhood, then a black guy informed him it was his hood and he better knock that shit off. Latino guy immediately pulled out a knife and started swinging.
Yes, because there's been a recent push to more heavily punish good Samaritans than perpetrators. When good men get metaphorically crucified for helping, they stop helping.
If that seems like a common sense outcome of such policies, you're right. But as we've seen time and again, common sense is not a flower that grows in everyone's garden.
Motivated in large part as a response to society saying fuck them. I'm not defending assholes being assholes, but I think what we have been seeing in the US over the last 5 or 10 years is classic collapse of the social contract stuff. The less a society cares about its people the less its people will care about the rest of society.
Yes, because people have always felt like outsiders in relation to society. My point was that this sort of public misbehaving is getting worse because social cohesion is getting even worse. Not everyone with grievances against society will respond this way, but as more people have grievances against society, more people will respond in a manner like this.
The last time I had an uncle blast his Doujin feed at full volume next to me, I suggested he lower the volume, he didn't care, so I blasted my own feed at louder volume. He got it then. Sadly people a few rows back did the same on the next train...
So on a crowded bus you've normally got 1 or 2. Behavior is actually much better on airplanes, usually (maybe 1-2 in ~150 passenger plane), and I have never seen someone who did not silence their phone after being asked politely by the attendant.
Even Switzerland is dirty because cigarette buts are everywhere. It's just that some % of the population are inconsiderate assholes and only heavy enforcement works vs than. Unfortunately this is something our current society is not willing to do.
Correct. Kicking someone off during a flight and not giving them a parachute counts as a regular murder...
"Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial"
https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
I mean such a thing I would say equally detracts from the flying experience, so why not also kick those people off?
Edit: not sure why I’m getting downvoted, this is a legitimate question. I genuinely want to hear the justification.
Your comment also presupposes two things: that flatulence is always involuntary and blasting music isn’t. Let’s say I have a form of Tourette’s that forces me to involuntarily blast noise and music and I have medical papers to prove it. Is it okay then?
I would absolutely support it if you could demonstrate that those two things are actually true. My point is: Who gets to decide what’s legitimately an involuntary medical issue and what isn’t, and where is the line that demarcates it? And what is the point of this exercise? It’s to prevent people from forcing everyone else to have a worse experience for their own personal gain, which flatulence is a form of that you could argue, so why is blasting music fundamentally different?
Anyway, for those who did not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCZ86O3PO-U
Sounds harsh to you.
Let the market decide.
Vote with your wallet and fly a different airline.
Now given that, do you really want to pay the extra cost of flying with 300 parachutes just so mr-full-volume-phone can have one?
the first time
I got a SARS virus flying to Udon Thani in 2019. We were seated next to two thai guys who were so sick they could barely sit up straight. We offered them help and treats because they looked like they were about to vomit.
Plane lands, next day I'm sick. I was laid up for 2 weeks with fever, the shits, and I had a weird spontaneous cough for over 1 month after I got better.
I bet most of that plane got sick, and it was so damn avoidable.
Difficult for the airline to do given the myriad of health privacy adjacents.
https://github.com/Pankajtanwarbanna/stfu
That is to say, do you really want a federal law passed about this? I vote we go with social shaming. Worked for cigarettes.
Bus, sure. On beaches and streets you have the option of moving away. It’s obnoxious. But in the same category as a large group walking slowly.
Idk, they’re not looking for “a peaceful place” and are using a public space without damaging it. Nobody is forced to use the park at the same time as them. This seems like a difference in preferences which is fine.
James Q. Wilson talked about this problem a long time ago... and why standard neighborhood shaming cannot really police it. Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations which is why you have a breakdown in manners and even high school kids from affluent areas hitting "devious licks."
You can’t leave a plane. And planes aren’t for recreation. I like quiet parks. But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade. I’m okay with other people having different thoughts on how to recreate.
> Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations
Older people have been complaining about kids with boomboxes and skateboards for generations.
People who cannot figure out how to share use of shared space should lose access to those places.
Arrest them on board, handcuff them and lead them away in handcuffs at the destination. No sympathy from me, especially since the only way the handcuffs route is going to happen is if the passenger in questions ignores the instructions from the flight crew.
I also have to note that on most flights, whether domestic or international, the it's already a criminal offence to ignore an instruction from the flight crew. The airline here did not need to make publish a new rule, they could have simply had the flight crew inform the annoying passenger.
Edit: We seem to have entitled assholes in this thread, from the downvotes I'm getting.