747s and Coding Agents

(carlkolon.com)

76 points | by cckolon 1 day ago

12 comments

  • cortesoft 1 hour ago
    I am not sure how many other people on here are old enough to remember, but I first learned to program before I had the internet. I had to read books, and then if I was trying to figure out how to do something, I would have to figure out which book to look it up in, and then figure out where in the book to find it and how to apply it to my situation. It made me learn a ton, because I would have to read a lot of books to even know where to look; I had to do my own ‘scraping and indexing’.

    I remember as the internet took off and you could just search for things, I thought it made programming too easy. You never had to actually learn how it worked, you can just search for the specific answer and someone else would do the hard work of figuring out how to use the tools available for your particular type of problem.

    Over the years, my feelings shifted, and I loved how the internet allowed me to accomplish so much more than I could have trying to figure it all out from books.

    I wonder if AI will feel similar.

    • SoftTalker 12 minutes ago
      I use AI for very little but I do like using it for stuff I'm just not very interested in but have to get done.

      For programming, I don't like it. It's like a master carpenter building furniture from IKEA. Sure it's faster and he doesn't have to think very hard and the end result is acceptable but he feels lazy and after a while he feels like he is losing his skills.

      The best days of computing for me were what you remember. A computer was just a blank slate. You turned it on, and had a ">" blinking on the screen. If you wanted it to do anything you had to write a program. And learning how to do that meant practice and study and reading... there were no shortcuts. It was challenging and frustrating and fun.

    • LatencyKills 50 minutes ago
      I've always felt a little odd saying, "Back in my day we had to understand the cpu, registers, etc." It's a true statement, but doesn't help in any way. Is that stuff still worth knowing, IMHO? Yes. Can you create incredibly useful code without that knowledge today? Absolutely.
      • manofmanysmiles 20 minutes ago
        There are some people who still know these things, and are able to use LLMs far more effectively than those who do not.

        I've seen the following prediction by a few people and am starting to agree with it: software development (and possibly most knowledge work) will become like farming. A relatively smaller number of people will do with large machines what previously took armies of people. There will always be some people exploring the cutting edge of thought, and feeding their insights into the machine, just how I image there are biochemists and soil biology experts who produce knowledge to inform decisions made by the people running large farming operations.

        I imagine this will lead to profound shifts in the world that we can hardly predict. If we don't blow ourselves up, perhaps space exploration and colonization will become possible.

      • Skunkleton 21 minutes ago
        I don't think it's odd. Sacrificing deep understanding, and delegating that responsibility to others is risky. In more concrete terms, if your livelihood depends on application development, you have concrete dependencies on platforms, frameworks, compilers, operating systems, and other abstractions that without which you might not be able to perform your job.

        Fewer abstractions, deeper understanding, fewer dependencies on others. These concepts show up over and over and not just in software. It's about safety.

    • georgemcbay 10 minutes ago
      I learned to program on a Commodore 64 using books I could get from libraries and some magazines like Compute!'s Gazette. I got online very early via BBSes (originally on a 300 baud modem for my C64) and was on the internet by the mid to late 1980s.

      I never had the feeling that being able to search for things on the internet made things too easy. For me it felt like a natural extension to books for self-learning, it was just faster.

      LLMs feel entirely different to me, and that's where I do get the sense that they make things "too easy" in that (like the author of the OP blog post) I no longer feel like I am building any sort of skill when using them other than code review (which is not a new skill as it is something I have previously done with code produced by other humans for a long time).

      As with the OP author I also think that "prompting" as a skill is hugely overblown. "Prompting" was maybe a bit more of a skill a year ago, but I find that you don't really have to get too detailed with current LLMs, you just have to be a bit careful not to bias them in negative ways. Whatever value I have now as a software developer has more to do with having veto power in the instances where the LLM agent goes off the rails than it does in constructing prompts.

      So for now I'm stuck in a situation where I feel like for work I am being paid to do I basically have to use LLMs because not doing so is effectively malpractice at this point (because there are real efficiency gains), but for selfish reasons if I could push a button to erase the existence of LLMs, I'd probably do it.

  • cedws 57 minutes ago
    We should be very concerned for the next generation. When you have the constant temptation of digging yourself out of a problem just by asking an LLM how will you ever learn anything?

    My biggest lessons were from hours of pain and toil, scouring the internet. When I finally found the solution, the dopamine hit ensured that lesson was burned into my neurons. There is no such dopamine hit with LLMs. You vaguely try to understand what it’s been doing for the last five minutes and try to steer it back on course. There is no strife.

    I’m only 24 and I think my career would be on a very different path if the LLMs of today were available just five years ago.

    • eastbound 31 minutes ago
      At the beginning of the internet, I used to save all webpages where I’d find info, just in case I would be stuck without a connection or if the website removed it. I had parts of the MDN.

      The internet never fell. I bet it’ll be the same with AI. You will never not have AI.

      The big difference is the internet was a liberation movement: Everything became open. And free. AI is the opposite: By design, everything is closed.

  • borzi 1 hour ago
    > For example, to add pagination to this website, I would read the Jekyll docs, find the right plugin to install, read the sample config, and make the change. Possibly this wouldn’t work, in which case I would Google it, read more, try more stuff, retest, etc. In this process it was hard not to learn things.

    How is this any different than building Ikea furniture? If I build my "Minska" cupboard using the step-by-step manual, did I learn something profound?

    • skydhash 1 hour ago
      If you've never put a cupboard together, you would have learned what the different parts, what size of screws to use (in the rough sense),... You may have forget it right after, but when someone ask you to help them, you will be a bit more proficient than someone with no experience.

      But the nice thing about a cupboard and its components is that they are real objects, so the remembrance is done with the whole body (like the feeling of a screw not correctly inserted). Software development is 90% a mental activity.

  • skepticATX 3 hours ago
    Reviewing code is absolutely different from writing it, and in my opinion much harder if the goal is more than surface level understanding.

    This is what I am still grappling with. Agents make more productive, but also probably worse at my job.

  • twodave 1 hour ago
    I find the opposite is true for me. In my wheelhouse I can use an agent to do a thing, and I can be very critical of the implementation. Outside of my wheelhouse I actually learn quite a lot by watching the agent solve a problem. Since I do have a strong background I am still able to judge the overall approach and identify obvious stupid things the agent tries to do. I would say the code quality is probably a bit worse in those situations than I would have ended up with, but takes about 1/3 of the time. The most difficult part is opening a PR and worrying there might be a couple stupid blips left that I missed, didn’t affect the implementation, but my coworkers are going to look at and ask me wtf I was thinking
  • Robdel12 1 hour ago
    Whether we want to accept it or not, we’re now QA. That’s not derogatory, at all.

    But I don’t think the answer here is to double down on reading the code and understanding that deeply. We’re rapidly moving past this.

    I think the answer is to review the code for very obvious bad choices. But then it’s about proper validation. Check out the app, run the flows, use it for real. Does it _actually_ function?

    Or that’s what is working for me. I cannot review all the LOC and I’m starting to feel like I don’t want.

  • thesz 2 hours ago

      > I do read the code, but reviewing code is very different from producing it, and surely teaches you less. If you don’t believe this, I doubt you work in software.
    
    I work in software and for single line I write I read hundredths of them.

    If I am fixing bugs in my own (mostly self-education) programs, I read my program several times, over and over again. If writing programs taught me something, it is how to read programs most effectively. And also how to write programs to be most effectively read.

    • GTP 2 hours ago
      > If I am fixing bugs in my own (mostly self-education) programs, I read my program several times

      I think here lies the difference OP is talking about. You are reading your own code, which means you had to first put in the effort to write it. If you use LLMs, you are reading code you didn't write.

      • hosh 1 hour ago
        I read other people’s code all the time. I work as a platform engineer with sre functions.

        Gemini 3 by itself is insufficient. I often find myself tracing through things or testing during runtime to understand how things behave. Claude Opus is not much better for this.

        On the other hand, pairing with Gemini 3 feels like pairing with other people. No one is going to get everything right all the time. I might ask Gemini to construct gcloud commands or look things up for me, but we’re trying to figure things out together.

      • thesz 1 hour ago
        If I need to change someone's code, I also read it. several times.
    • dongguanxianhao 2 hours ago
      >hundredths of them

      Man, it would rule so much if programmers were literate and knew how to actually communicate what they intend to say.

      • MDCore 1 hour ago
        It's obvious from the context here what the intended meaning was. Everyone makes typos sometimes.
      • Brian_K_White 2 hours ago
        Man it would rule so much if programmers could manage not to be assholes by default so much of the time.

        It's ironic that the more ignorant one is the one calling another ignorant.

        Alright I've had my fun with the name-calling. I will now explain the stunningly obvious. Not a thing anyone should have to for someone so sharp as yourself but there we are...

        For someone to produce that text after growing up in an English speaking environment, they would indeed be comically inept communicators. Which is why the more reasonable assumption is that English is not in fact their native language.

        Not merely the more generous assumption. Being generous by default would be a better character trait than not, but still arguably a luxury. But also simply the more reasonable assumption by plain numbers and reasoning. So, not only were you a douche, you had to go out of your way to select a less likely possibility to make the douche you wanted to be fit the situation.

        Literate programmers indeed.

      • epgui 1 hour ago
        Not everyone has English as a first language.
  • omoikane 3 hours ago
    > reviewing code is very different from producing it, and surely teaches you less

    Maybe he meant "reviewing code from coding agents"? Reviewing code from other humans is often a great way to learn.

    • tass 3 hours ago
      I interpreted this as not as good a way to learn.

      I learn the most from struggling through a problem, and reading someone’s code doesn’t teach me all the wrong ways they attempted before it looked like the way it now does.

      • omoikane 3 hours ago
        I was thinking in situations where a coworker might send me something to review, and I might have thought "hmm, I wouldn't have done it like that, but this is a great way to do it too". Also, a good source of teachable code is to participate in a programming contest, and then review the repositories of the teams who scored better than me after the contest.

        I agree that if I don't already know how to implement something, seeing a solution before trying it myself is not great, that's like skipping the homework exercises and copying straight from the answer books.

      • vorticalbox 3 hours ago
        This is why tutorials in programming don't really teach much because you get the finished version. Not all the wrong steps that were taken, why they failed, what else was tried.

        These steps are what help you solve other issues in the future.

  • flyinglizard 4 hours ago
    This is why I still haven't embraced agents in my work but stick with halfway manual workflow using aider. It's the only way I can keep ownership of the codebase. Maybe this will change because code ownership will no longer have any value, but I don't feel like we're there yet.
  • LetsGetTechnicl 1 hour ago

      [...] since I work at an AI lab and stand to gain a great deal if AI follows through on its economic promise.
    
    And there it is.
  • aplomb1026 1 hour ago
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  • nimbus-hn-test 2 hours ago
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