I work in IT sec, where this is even more pronounced. Specifically, does anyone please know about any effective alternative to back channels when tackling "we need your team to do this thing which doesn't help your metrics"?
I think this is good advice, I'm adding it to my bag of tricks, thanks.
I have to ask a follow-up - there are cases, where the teams don't see any value in security at all, so they don't want anything that I'm selling. I think I know the answer to this one (namely, you need to build relationships with and convince the leads). But I am still looking for an alternative as the above is hard in all cases and impossible in some.
The more I work in corporate and learn about office politics, the more I see parallels to geopolitics and diplomacy. If I squint, I can even see the parallels to social and romantic relationships as well.
Maybe it's the mathematician in me who enjoys building models of abstraction.
One of my favorite subjects is politics. I enjoy reading books about politics, and keeping up on (geo-)politics, subscribe to political magazines and honestly don’t mind navigating office politics.
Because at the heart of it it’s all the same. It’s humans acting like humans. Every person (and organization) has desires and fears. When two parties get together, balancing everyone’s wants is fun. It’s like a complicated engineering problem, except with people requirements instead, and politics is the architecture.
I think people are rad and genuinely enjoy these kinds of problems.
Is it not natural for that? I think less so between social and romantic but larger businesses and governments have definitely share many of the same problems. Though I think businesses tend to be much more autocratic. Maybe feudal is a better term?
There's definitely a lot of differences but I think the larger a business becomes the more government like it becomes. Or at least it appears that way to me. I mean they're both very bureaucratic
Govts are typically "large enterprise". In most cases the largest enterprise in a country.
In some countries they also have the burden of being legible to outsiders. Between the shareholders (voters) and journalists etc there's a lot of process that has to be transparent.
This transparency is legibility driven to extremes. If an enterprise kills a project (think Windows Phone) its done, and we move on. If a govt kills a project there's a lot of external attention on what went wrong, who's getting fired (or going to jail) and how "our money got wasted".
So yes, as things get bigger they matter to more people. The more people involved the more every single thought and action has to be meticulously detailed.
Which is party why (democratic) govt is soooo bad at actually getting anything done. Feudal govts, and autocratic businesses, get a lot done - much of it quickly. It might not be good. It might be motivated my enrichment not care, but it gets done fast.
A good autocrat moves the needle, and things get a lot better very quickly. A bad autocrat achieves his goals, often at enormous cost to the organization (which may not survive. )
Eh, autocrats get away with looking like they move fast due to their lack of transparency; slow things can be dismissed or not propagandized, fast things will be shouted from the rooftops.
> Why are these capabilities so valuable to a large software company, when small software companies can do without them? This is leaving my area of expertise somewhat, but I’m pretty sure the main answer is large enterprise deals.
Anyone willing to comment for whom this is their area of expertise?
I don't think it's enterprise deals. I think it's communication at scale, internally. Imagine a company of m employees as a giant m*m matrix of communication slots, with a 1 for regular close communication, a 0 for no communication at all, and a 0.5 for those hallway meetings that we are assured by our CEO's are why RTO is so important (this would be those backchannels if you RTFA).
A small company, (let's say, below Dunbar's Number) has a matrix of almost all 1's just naturally. But as the company grows that matrix gets sparser and sparser- by the time you get to something like Google (180k employees plus roughly that many again contractors) you have almost all 0's with only a few 1's scattered through it. But information still needs to flow through the company, from outside a given two pizza team in, e.g. "build this not that," or from the team out, e.g "this project sucks and needs to die," or from the side, e.g. "Group Digut solved that problem that you are facing, use this package they wrote" or more personal things, e.g. "employee 24601 is awesome and needs more responsibility."
But that information is actually hugely important to the company, in an important sense all of that information is the company. So important that companies formalize the responsibilities of that information flow with managers, and formalize processes for this information to flow, so that they ensure that something is happening for all of those- that's what planning processes and promo packets and the like are all about. They are trying to make the information flow legible- the responsibility of a specific person in a specific way.
Quantitatively this seems to be where Price's law comes in:
The square root of the number of people does half the work. (Think of the matrix diagonal.) With three people in a group, 1.5 of them do half the work. With 10,000 in a group about 100 of them do half the work.
Price's law also seems to be recursive. Just like Pareto's 80/20-rule.
I'm a cofounder of a small software company that specializes in enterprise projects and I don't agree with this line, though the rest of the article rings true. Enterprises do need legibility at the project level, but that doesn't necessarily translate to internal legibility for the contracted company. You can deliver enterprise deals without demanding a particular internal development process, other than committing to and prioritizing certain features. You do need legibility at the customer-facing project management level, but that doesn't need to get so granular that you dictate how exactly developers perform and organize their work. To me the real explanation is pretty simple: large software companies need the legibility of enterprises because they are enterprises, or are trying to become one.
In any large organization, expect to be audited by internal and external several times a year. The auditors want to see process documents. The more the better.
That line jumped out at me as well as being weirdly specific and reductive compared to the rest of the article which read as pretty broadly truthy.
My take as a middle manager in medium sized company (but who came from a startup background) is that some structure is necessary as a company scales just for people to know how to do their jobs. You can design it lots of different ways from light to heavy, but once you go beyond Dunbar's number you can't just rely on common sense and informal communication. If you really really hate "process", you can push things pretty far, and I guess Steam would be the canonical example here, but even there you see that it heavily filters for certain personality types and the politics can be brutal if you're not part of the in-crowd.
Not quite my area of expertise but I can venture a guess. It's not large enterprise deals, that's a bit too random and narrow minded. Large software companies care more about their position in market (market share).
At the end of the day businesses build money machines that you put money in and you take money out from various markets. You need legibility if you want to tie all development work to how it affects how much of the market you own. And it's not quite legibility that is needed, it's accurate future market share prediction, which requires a particularly strategic form of legibility. The only way to increase market share without luck is to accurately forecast what your actions will do to your market share. But how can you do that if you have no idea what your devs are building and shipping?
We tend to make fun of incompetent business people but this is what the competent ones are doing - being super accurate in their forecast of future revenue, and forcing devs to build things that will help gain market share.
Devs often don't think about business strategy enough (as evidenced by the original article, no offense). So they aren't usually good at tying everything they do back to gaining market share. Devs who are the market audience for their app can be naturally good at PMF and going from 0 to 1, but as you scale its very hard to find devs that are also the market audience of the product they are building, so they tend to be bad at predicting how their dev roadmap will affect market share gain.
Without legibility, a team of devs can be a slot machine where you pull the lever and hope the features hit the jackpot or at least a modest return and not duds. With small bets, that's a great way to become large, but its no way to run a competitive large business.
I was an engineering manager for 25 years, and had to deal with the balance. I worked for a heavily process-driven company. It could be infuriating, but they did manage to consistently produce some of the finest hardware in the world (unfortunately, the same could not be said for the software).
I have found that writing things down, can ossify a project, but you really can't do without. Communication overhead is the single biggest killer. That's why a small team of experienced engineers, that are used to working together, can often do amazing amounts of work, and that "tribal knowledge" -that bugaboo of software process gurus- is actually a very important accelerator.
I wrote a post called "Concrete Galoshes"[0], that talks about the things that add structure and inflexibility to projects.
The single biggest lesson, is that we should be very careful about "One Size Fits All" solutions. Different types of projects need different types of overhead and structure.
> Communication overhead is the single biggest killer.
True. To put a fine point on this I would add that enabling requisite communication is an exponential equation. Specifically, adding team members typically increases intra-team communication requirements exponentially as does adding teams to the organization.
> That's why a small team of experienced engineers, that are used to working together, can often do amazing amounts of work, and that "tribal knowledge" -that bugaboo of software process gurus- is actually a very important accelerator.
I believe both situations you have identified are derived from the same concepts - trust and understanding.
Trust, in that small experienced teams who have worked together for a nontrivial period of time learn in which areas each excel and where they do not.
Understanding, in that those highly effective teams value the trust established and seek to complement each other's skills.
I believe "tribal knowledge" should be an expected product of the above and is ideally captured via documentation, mentoring, presentations, etc.
I generally don’t name them, in my posts, in order to reduce the amount of “media noise” they need to search through.
Also, I will occasionally say less-than-complimentary stuff about them (not too bad, I still have massive respect for them). I’d rather not give them agita.
> Why are these capabilities so valuable to a large software company, when small software companies can do without them? This is leaving my area of expertise somewhat, but I’m pretty sure the main answer is large enterprise deals
I think the more boring answer may be that in any sufficiently large organization, the only way to maintain control is through legible processes, because the sociopaths do utilize the legible processes to keep things running (and utilize the illegible processes to make deals). Without legible processes, after dunbar's number, your communication falls apart.
I disagree with your second sentence above. I think it is shallow dismissals that are inappropriate here. Conversely, I have upvoted a number of long explanations of interesting topics.
If you don't have time to write a detailed refutation, that's entirely understandable! But if you do, I would love to read it.
I did appreciate your paragraph length comment on the matter elsewhere in this thread.
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
I appreciate the feedback. I was not rebuking the HN community member who posted, but the author of the article he linked to. Refuting that original article would require a couple of thousand words. The missing perspective was that of the customer, which is essentially opposite from that of the vendor.
The budget is use-or-lose. The contracts with the major suppliers condition large "discounts" on spend increasing every year. The exact targets of the spend are either specified by the auditors or not specified at all. I have been in meetings where between ~50-100 managers and architects were told, we have to spend 15% more with ___ next year, here is their list of software SKUs, what is your Christmas list?
Pretty please?
I have to ask a follow-up - there are cases, where the teams don't see any value in security at all, so they don't want anything that I'm selling. I think I know the answer to this one (namely, you need to build relationships with and convince the leads). But I am still looking for an alternative as the above is hard in all cases and impossible in some.
Maybe it's the mathematician in me who enjoys building models of abstraction.
Because at the heart of it it’s all the same. It’s humans acting like humans. Every person (and organization) has desires and fears. When two parties get together, balancing everyone’s wants is fun. It’s like a complicated engineering problem, except with people requirements instead, and politics is the architecture.
I think people are rad and genuinely enjoy these kinds of problems.
There's definitely a lot of differences but I think the larger a business becomes the more government like it becomes. Or at least it appears that way to me. I mean they're both very bureaucratic
In some countries they also have the burden of being legible to outsiders. Between the shareholders (voters) and journalists etc there's a lot of process that has to be transparent.
This transparency is legibility driven to extremes. If an enterprise kills a project (think Windows Phone) its done, and we move on. If a govt kills a project there's a lot of external attention on what went wrong, who's getting fired (or going to jail) and how "our money got wasted".
So yes, as things get bigger they matter to more people. The more people involved the more every single thought and action has to be meticulously detailed.
Which is party why (democratic) govt is soooo bad at actually getting anything done. Feudal govts, and autocratic businesses, get a lot done - much of it quickly. It might not be good. It might be motivated my enrichment not care, but it gets done fast.
A good autocrat moves the needle, and things get a lot better very quickly. A bad autocrat achieves his goals, often at enormous cost to the organization (which may not survive. )
Autocrats don't automatically execute faster.
Anyone willing to comment for whom this is their area of expertise?
A small company, (let's say, below Dunbar's Number) has a matrix of almost all 1's just naturally. But as the company grows that matrix gets sparser and sparser- by the time you get to something like Google (180k employees plus roughly that many again contractors) you have almost all 0's with only a few 1's scattered through it. But information still needs to flow through the company, from outside a given two pizza team in, e.g. "build this not that," or from the team out, e.g "this project sucks and needs to die," or from the side, e.g. "Group Digut solved that problem that you are facing, use this package they wrote" or more personal things, e.g. "employee 24601 is awesome and needs more responsibility."
But that information is actually hugely important to the company, in an important sense all of that information is the company. So important that companies formalize the responsibilities of that information flow with managers, and formalize processes for this information to flow, so that they ensure that something is happening for all of those- that's what planning processes and promo packets and the like are all about. They are trying to make the information flow legible- the responsibility of a specific person in a specific way.
The square root of the number of people does half the work. (Think of the matrix diagonal.) With three people in a group, 1.5 of them do half the work. With 10,000 in a group about 100 of them do half the work.
Price's law also seems to be recursive. Just like Pareto's 80/20-rule.
Add Conway’s law to this and you are all set.
The worst case is your auditor “fires” you as a customer. For example, https://apnews.com/article/super-micro-computer-stock-audito...
My take as a middle manager in medium sized company (but who came from a startup background) is that some structure is necessary as a company scales just for people to know how to do their jobs. You can design it lots of different ways from light to heavy, but once you go beyond Dunbar's number you can't just rely on common sense and informal communication. If you really really hate "process", you can push things pretty far, and I guess Steam would be the canonical example here, but even there you see that it heavily filters for certain personality types and the politics can be brutal if you're not part of the in-crowd.
At the end of the day businesses build money machines that you put money in and you take money out from various markets. You need legibility if you want to tie all development work to how it affects how much of the market you own. And it's not quite legibility that is needed, it's accurate future market share prediction, which requires a particularly strategic form of legibility. The only way to increase market share without luck is to accurately forecast what your actions will do to your market share. But how can you do that if you have no idea what your devs are building and shipping?
We tend to make fun of incompetent business people but this is what the competent ones are doing - being super accurate in their forecast of future revenue, and forcing devs to build things that will help gain market share.
Devs often don't think about business strategy enough (as evidenced by the original article, no offense). So they aren't usually good at tying everything they do back to gaining market share. Devs who are the market audience for their app can be naturally good at PMF and going from 0 to 1, but as you scale its very hard to find devs that are also the market audience of the product they are building, so they tend to be bad at predicting how their dev roadmap will affect market share gain.
Without legibility, a team of devs can be a slot machine where you pull the lever and hope the features hit the jackpot or at least a modest return and not duds. With small bets, that's a great way to become large, but its no way to run a competitive large business.
I was an engineering manager for 25 years, and had to deal with the balance. I worked for a heavily process-driven company. It could be infuriating, but they did manage to consistently produce some of the finest hardware in the world (unfortunately, the same could not be said for the software).
I have found that writing things down, can ossify a project, but you really can't do without. Communication overhead is the single biggest killer. That's why a small team of experienced engineers, that are used to working together, can often do amazing amounts of work, and that "tribal knowledge" -that bugaboo of software process gurus- is actually a very important accelerator.
I wrote a post called "Concrete Galoshes"[0], that talks about the things that add structure and inflexibility to projects.
The single biggest lesson, is that we should be very careful about "One Size Fits All" solutions. Different types of projects need different types of overhead and structure.
[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/various/concrete-galoshes/
True. To put a fine point on this I would add that enabling requisite communication is an exponential equation. Specifically, adding team members typically increases intra-team communication requirements exponentially as does adding teams to the organization.
> That's why a small team of experienced engineers, that are used to working together, can often do amazing amounts of work, and that "tribal knowledge" -that bugaboo of software process gurus- is actually a very important accelerator.
I believe both situations you have identified are derived from the same concepts - trust and understanding.
Trust, in that small experienced teams who have worked together for a nontrivial period of time learn in which areas each excel and where they do not.
Understanding, in that those highly effective teams value the trust established and seek to complement each other's skills.
I believe "tribal knowledge" should be an expected product of the above and is ideally captured via documentation, mentoring, presentations, etc.
Also, I will occasionally say less-than-complimentary stuff about them (not too bad, I still have massive respect for them). I’d rather not give them agita.
Either mention the company
Or don’t mention the status of the company at all.
Leaving readers wondering or hanging is eyeroll-inducing.
I think the more boring answer may be that in any sufficiently large organization, the only way to maintain control is through legible processes, because the sociopaths do utilize the legible processes to keep things running (and utilize the illegible processes to make deals). Without legible processes, after dunbar's number, your communication falls apart.
You manage surface area, not volume or area, and the coastline is pretty bumpy.
If you don't have time to write a detailed refutation, that's entirely understandable! But if you do, I would love to read it.
I did appreciate your paragraph length comment on the matter elsewhere in this thread.
"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
"Don't be snarky."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Did you have something more to add? I am definitely curious to understand more of your perspective.
Cheers.