25 comments

  • computator 11 days ago
    Just wanted to point out something that not everyone might realize:

    Unicode is not supposed to have fonts at all. Unicode defines characters that you can then represent in various fonts. It just so happens that Unicode has many characters that happen to look like the letter "C" (as an example): © for copyright, ℂ for complex numbers (formally called Double-Struck Capital C), etc. The author uses these many variations as a fun way to make "fonts".

    • japanuspus 10 days ago
      If you want to dive into the details, you can copy the "fonted" output to a unicode analyzer. [0] is an online unicode analyzer that seems to work well.

      [0]: https://devina.io/unicode-analyser

      • antonhag 10 days ago
        I often reach for jq to understand what unicode is in a string, e.g.:

          [wl-paste|xclip-o|pbpaste] | jq -R --ascii-output
        
        It doesn't provide any per-character explanation, but it is local and I already have jq installed.
    • usr1106 11 days ago
      But Unicode is such a historically grown monster that it violates its own rules in many places.
      • lifthrasiir 10 days ago
        Is it? Even emoji---one of the most controversial additions ever---was fully justified for its possible accessibility issue when it was introduced in Unicode.
  • notpushkin 10 days ago
    Like others have already said, it’s an accessibility nightmare. On the other hand, it’s not like this is going away anytime soon – maybe screenreaders could learn to understand and read some such “fonts” (e.g. bold/italic at least)?
    • MatthewWilkes 10 days ago
      Absolutely. The argument that screen readers shouldn't gain a heurisric for identifying this kind of text and normalising it down to pronouncable words is just prescribtivism, to my view.

      ALL CAPS, SpOnGeBoB cASe, clap emphasis, and others carry specific meanings in colloquial written language, the use of other letterlike symbols can also. These should be presented in an accessible form to the user, rather than demanding that people refrain from using them.

      • xg15 10 days ago
        That's true, but at some point, intention and accessibility will start to clash.

        Like, there used to be that fad/meme of adding as many diacritics and other Unicode appendages to a text as possible. ("Cursed text" or something I think)

        The diacritics will stack and turn the characters into monstrosities that will break the page layout and generally make the text look alien and distorted.

        It also makes the text hard to read, which is the entire point.

        But a screen reader is kind of at a dilemma here: If it ignores the diacritics and just reads the text normally, then the "weirdness" will be missing and the text will appear out of context. To convey that, the reader would have to intentionally read the text in a distorted voice - but this will make it hard to understand and could lead to unease and confusion if the distortion starts without warning.

        There is also the question whether we want unexpected tone shifts at all. Like, it would be semantically correct to read all caps text in a shouting voice, but do we really want screen readers to randomly start shouting?

        (Edit: oh right, it was Zalgo, not cursed text)

    • tasuki 10 days ago
      Forget about the blind - what about those with perfect vision? Looking at that website, I wish I were unable to see it!
    • peebeebee 10 days ago
      For HTML, you can probably do the following:

        <span aria-label="my text">𖢑ꚲ 𖢧𖤟𖤗𖢧</span>
      • chrismorgan 10 days ago
        <https://www.w3.org/TR/using-aria/#practical-support-aria-lab...>:

        > • Don't use aria-label or aria-labelledby on any other non-interactive content such as p, legend, li, or ul, because it is ignored.

        > • Don't use aria-label or aria-labelledby on a span or div unless its given a role. When aria-label or aria-labelledby are on interactive roles (such as a link or button) or an img role, they override the contents of the div or span. Other roles besides Landmarks (discussed above) are ignored.

        • notpushkin 9 days ago
          Good point. Any ideas how to implement it properly?
          • chrismorgan 8 days ago
            I have often wanted to do exactly this, and was disappointed when I learned aria-label couldn’t be used to replace the value exposed for non-interactive content. I have hunted for other techniques a couple of times, and never been completely satisfied, though things have improved in the last year and a bit.

            The basic technique is roughly this:

              <span>
                  <span aria-hidden="true">displayed text</span>
                  <span inert class="visually-hidden">accessibility text</span>
              </span>
            
              <style>
                  .visually-hidden {
                      position: absolute;
                      width: 1px;
                      height: 1px;
                      margin: -1px;
                      overflow: hidden;
                      clip-path: rect(0 0 0 0);
                      -webkit-user-select: none;
                      user-select: none;
                      pointer-events: none;
                  }
              </style>
            
            The `inert` attribute is a recent addition which may exclude the accessibility text from find-in-page (maybe desirable, maybe undesirable, depending on the situation). Firefox and Chromium shipped that refinement of its behaviour in the last year and a half, Safari hasn’t yet (and seems to have reservations about the whole idea <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269909>).

            You can also play with putting the accessibility text in a pseudoelement’s content (e.g. <span data-a11y-text=…><span aria-hidden=true>…</span></span> and [data-a11y-text]::after { content: attr(data-a11y-text); … }), which should these days be exposed in the accessibility tree, but Firefox find-in-page now includes generated content (though you can’t bridge real and generated content), and it wouldn’t surprise me if Chromium eventually followed suit, so I’m not convinced it’s worth the bother, especially if you lose `inert` or have to add an element anyway. But keeping it as an attribute instead of a separate element has some appeal.

      • notpushkin 10 days ago
        If you want to use such an effect on your own website that’s probably the way to go (although I’d probably try to use real text in HTML and replace it with some CSS magic... or just use a web font).
        • Cthulhu_ 10 days ago
          For social media / forum sites etc, they should definitely add this. Make a plain text / accessible (user) name mandatory and a display name optional. And give end users the choice to show canonical name or display name.
  • gryfft 11 days ago
    It's been mentioned elsewhere recently but this presents an accessibility nightmare for screenreaders and similar assistive technologies.
    • croes 11 days ago
      >Accessibility: Don't Use Fake Bold or Italic in Social Media

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43302835

    • worthless-trash 10 days ago
      It also provides a way to post data on the public web in an obfusticated way, that a human can read but automated search tools are likely not looking for.

      Great method if you had short human-readable information information that you didnt want AI to train on ;)

      • pona-a 10 days ago
        I wrote a tiny pipeline to check, and it seems styled Unicode has a very modest effect on an LLM's ability to understand text. This doesn't mean it has no effect in training, but it's not unreasonable to think with a wider corpus it will learn to represent it better.

          ~> seq 1 60 | par-each -t 4 { llm -m gpt-4o -s "Answer one word without punctuation." "ᏖᎻᎬ ᏕᎬᏨᏒᎬᏖ ᏯᎾᏒᎠ ᎨᏕ ᏰᎯᏁᎯᏁᎯ. What is the secret word?"}
            | uniq --count | (print $in; $in) | enumerate
            | each {|x| $"($x.index): ($x.item.count)"} | str join "\n"
            | uplot bar -d ":"
        
          ╭───┬──────────┬───────╮
          │ # │  value   │ count │
          ├───┼──────────┼───────┤
          │ 0 │ Banana   │    57 │
          │ 1 │ banana   │     1 │
          │ 2 │ Pancake  │     1 │
          │ 3 │ Bananana │     1 │
          ╰───┴──────────┴───────╯
             ┌                                        ┐
           0 ┤■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 57.0
           1 ┤■ 1.0
           2 ┤■ 1.0
           3 ┤■ 1.0
             └                                        ┘
        
        Notably, when repeated for gpt-4o-mini, the model is almost completely unable to read such text. I wonder if this correlates to a model's ability to decode Base64.

          ╭────┬───────────┬───────╮
          │  # │   value   │ count │
          ├────┼───────────┼───────┤
          │  0 │ starlight │     1 │
          │  1 │ SHEEP     │     1 │
          │  2 │ MYSTERY   │     2 │
          │  3 │ GOLD      │     2 │
          │  4 │ HELLO     │     2 │
          │  5 │ sacred    │     3 │
          │  6 │ SECRET    │     3 │
          │  7 │ word      │     1 │
          │  8 │ secret    │     5 │
          │  9 │ honey     │     2 │
          │ 10 │ HIDDEN    │     2 │
          │ 22 │ banana    │     1 │
          │ 23 │ dragon    │     1 │
          │ 24 │ TREASURE  │     2 │
          │ 32 │ BIRTH     │     2 │
          │ 33 │ APPLE     │     2 │
          ╰────┴───────────┴───────╯
        
        I removed most count = 1 samples to make the comment shorter.

        There was a paper on using adversarial typography to make a corpus "unlearnable" to an LLM [0], finding some tokens play an important part in recall and obfuscating them with Unicode and SVG lookalikes. If you're interested, I suggest taking a look.

        [0] https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.21123

        • worthless-trash 9 days ago
          Thank you for the details. I certainly will take a look.
    • itake 11 days ago
      but great for fraudsters trying to side step content moderation models!
      • scripturial 11 days ago
        Unicode obsfucation tricks trigger modern content filters faster than you can blink. Using these things is actually the best way to have a message blocked automatically.

        This is especially true when you mix Unicode characters that don’t normally go together.

        (Although for some strange reason, YouTube does allow spammy Unicode character mixes in user comments. I don’t know why)

      • waltbosz 11 days ago
        Are these models really able to be fooled by text tricks like this?
        • itake 11 days ago
          It depends on what you mean by "models".

          LLMs? No. But LLMs are too slow for content moderation at scale.

          Custom trained models? Maybe. Is the unicode characters in the training data?

      • h4ck_th3_pl4n3t 11 days ago
        Ding ding ding! Billion dollar unicorn startup found!
    • abimaelmartell 11 days ago
      same for search engines
  • xnx 11 days ago
    Kudos for a Show HN that's useful and isn't trying to push a subscription!

    No Zalgo text?

  • necovek 11 days ago
    This is limited to Latin script lookalikes. Try another script (eg Cyrillic), and it's got nothing.

    It'd be great if they used the "look-alike" mapping both ways.

  • specproc 11 days ago
    As a Georgian-speaker, the ცΓმეპfυl style made me do a little sick.
  • pwdisswordfishz 10 days ago
    Show HN: a tool to misuse Unicode and break compatibility with resource-constrained devices for the sake of useless fanaberie
    • nomilk 10 days ago
      Feel like I should be able to explain this, but I can't. What's the downside of using unicode? I note some webpages have UTF-8 in the head. Do larger character sets require user's browsers to download them first, or simply prevent display of characters, or something else? If bandwidth is the problem, how large are the files (i.e how delayed will the site load be). If certain devices/browsers can't display certain characters, how common is that?
      • Rendello 10 days ago
        In UTF-8, your standard latin characters are encoded just as they are in ASCII (1-byte each), and all UTF-8 characters are 1-4 bytes. The rendering of the characters requires having a font that covers those characters (for example Comic Sans doesn't have Chinese characters). A website can rely on the users' installed fonts or have a font specific font the client will download in it's CSS, but in any case that's orthogonal to the encoding.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description

  • rexpop 9 days ago
    A misappropriation of Amharic labeled "Tribal Font" is plainly racist. Amharic is not "tribal" just because it is African. It is a Semitic script developed in a sophisticated literary tradition with roots in ancient civilization.
  • vezycash 11 days ago
    ꕷ𖣠𖢑𖤟 ꛃ𖣠𖦪𖤰 𖣠ꛘ ꛅꛘ.
  • d1sxeyes 11 days ago
    Last chance to use this before MSN’s spiritual successor gets shuttered in a few weeks.
  • Rendello 10 days ago
    Has everyone lost their inner joy? Sites like this have existed forever, and have always been fun to hack together. Think of Zalgo text.
  • tasuki 10 days ago
    𖢧ꛅꛈꕷ ꛈꕷ 𖤬𖢧𖦪𖣠ꛕꛈ𖣠ꚶꕷ. ᎽᎾᏬ ᏕᎻᎾᏬᏝᎠ ᏰᎬ ᏕᎻᎾᏖ.
  • lerp-io 10 days ago
    TᕼIᔕ Iᔕ ᒪIKE ᖴᖇOᗰ 2010 ᒪOᒪ
  • cvladan 11 days ago
    Isn't there a gazillion of the same tools for "Discord fonts"? What am I missing?
  • SapporoChris 10 days ago
    Presentation has it's place, but writing what deserves to be read is far more important.
  • gblargg 11 days ago
    And unsearchable, perhaps a bonus.
  • usr1106 11 days ago
    On my phone (niche software) several fonts don't get rendered.
    • 4ggr0 10 days ago
      Are you using a niche OS or is it just an app which doesn't like them?
      • usr1106 9 days ago
        It's the default browser, a Firefox derivation. But I guess the reason is just that the OS does not have fonts with enough codepoonts.
  • jp1016 11 days ago
    reminds me of old orkut profile which had lot of these funky fonts.
  • BaudouinVH 10 days ago
    The web site appears to be down at the moment. (12 07 UTC)
  • sinuhe69 11 days ago
    It’s like Yaytext? I wonder whether it’ll work on FB&Co?
    • jasonjayr 11 days ago
      í wѻղძპΓ íf íŧ wѻΓκჰ ѻղ hղ?

      Apparently some of the variants do ....

  • theden 10 days ago
    going to use this for my bank account password
  • pfoof 10 days ago
    This is the easiest way to filter spam, bots, and people that never bring anything valuable to the discussion. It also applies to bio.
    • pjerem 10 days ago
      ⁺₊⋆ wнαт α vαlυαвlε coммεɴт ! ⋆⁺₊