41 comments

  • Intralexical 9 days ago
    > The team then smeared the yellow dye on a mouse’s underbelly, making the abdominal skin see-through and revealing the rodent’s intestines and organs.

    > The procedure has not yet been tested on humans and researchers will need to show it is safe to use, particularly if the dye is injected beneath the skin.

    How did they resist the urge to sneak a peak at their own arm or one of their fingers?

    • TomMasz 9 days ago
      It's a food dye, if you can eat it you certainly can put it on your skin. And they probably did but don't want to announce that they experimented on themselves.
      • derefr 9 days ago
        > if you can eat it you certainly can put it on your skin

        That doesn’t always follow. There are (organic, large-molecule) substances that your mucus membranes will protect you from, and which you’ll then digest (denature) and greatly metabolize (non-leaky intestinal absorption routes through the liver) and so render harmless; but which would greatly harm you if left on your skin, as the substance can potentially absorb from there all the way to your bloodstream, without any digestion or a chance at first-pass metabolism.

        Think, for example: testosterone gel. Eating it wouldn’t result in much if any testosterone entering your bloodstream — but rubbing it on yourself sure does.

      • delecti 9 days ago
        The dose makes the poison though. Tartrazine is already in cosmetics, but that doesn't mean a ton of it is still safe.
        • kazinator 8 days ago
          > already in cosmetics

          Rendering transparent rather than covering up would be kind of an anti-cosmetic use.

          • delecti 8 days ago
            Yep, which is one of the reasons why this discovery is so weird.

            The reason I mention cosmetics, is it means that it's at least in theory skin-safe for humans up to at least some threshold. The next questions would be: what's the threshold at which it's not skin-safe for us anymore, and is that high enough for this effect to happen? Neither are foregone conclusions though.

        • cpncrunch 9 days ago
          Another reason to avoid tartrazine. Who knows what its doing to our insides.
          • delecti 9 days ago
            That isn't remotely what I was saying. You can die from drinking too much water, that doesn't mean you should avoid drinking water for fear of what it's doing to your insides.
            • cpncrunch 9 days ago
              Of course. My comment was based more on this study. It’s concerning that it has this effect.
              • RoyalHenOil 6 days ago
                Why is the effect concerning? If you pour water on undyed cloth, it has the same effect and makes the cloth much more transparent, but that doesn't mean that the water is damaging to the cloth.
      • TheRealPomax 9 days ago
        blue #1 would like a word.

        Also basic human biology: just because something's safe to consume (which keeps it isolated from the rest of your body until it's been through the digestive tract) in extremely low doses doesn't mean it's safe to expose yourself to a highly concentrated dose via external exposure.

      • Mistletoe 9 days ago
        $25 and an Amazon order and posterity awaits.

        https://a.co/d/gJ1MQG3

        Did the article imply you need red light to see the effect though?

        • Mattwmaster58 9 days ago
          Looks like someone took you up on it, instead of a showing a price the Amazon link shows out of stock.
          • Mistletoe 8 days ago
            Haha got to jump fast if you want to see your organs!
      • Findecanor 9 days ago
        That's not a safe assumption. There have been cases where food flavourings have been tried in e-cigarette liquids and caused irritation in the users' airways.
        • collingreen 8 days ago
          Irritation and/or the often fatal, incurable, and horrifyingly named "Bronchiolitis obliterans"

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans

          • eurleif 8 days ago
            To be clear, there are no documented cases of bronchiolitis obliterans caused by vaping. Historically, there were cases among workers in a microwave popcorn factory who were exposed to large quantities of the flavoring chemical diacetyl. Some early e-liquid flavors contained diacetyl, and while the level of exposure was drastically lower than that of a popcorn factory worker, people were concerned about it, and that concern led e-liquid manufacturers to stop using it.
    • speleding 9 days ago
      This is going to be a Halloween sensation if it ever becomes available to the general public!
      • ethanol-brain 9 days ago
        It looks like you need special sensors and a lot of light in certain wavelengths. Would like to read the paper.
    • Palomides 9 days ago
      you'd probably get fired immediately for doing human experiments without IRB approval
      • ithkuil 9 days ago
        "it was an accident!"
    • siva7 9 days ago
      You don't play with chemicals
      • lm28469 9 days ago
        That's kind of how we got LSD, saccharin and microwave ovens. (not really "playing with" but not being super careful about safety)
      • diggan 9 days ago
        Even when the play is "touching" and the chemicals are "food dyes"? I wouldn't say I'm a risk taker, but even I would probably try that out for giggles.
      • Perenti 8 days ago
        I did, as a kid. Blew up the kitchen. Got good at home chemistry.

        Still do at times, but it's much harder to get the good stuff, like KNO3.

      • perlgeek 9 days ago
        Even if not intentional, such things happen by accident. Have you ever read up on how the psychedelic properties of LSD were discovered?

        > While re-synthesizing LSD, he accidentally absorbed a small amount of the drug and discovered its powerful effects

        From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_LSD#Discovery

      • lazide 9 days ago
        Clearly you don’t know many chemists? You might as well tell EOD to not play with explosives!
        • DocFeind 9 days ago
          confirmed as correct
      • screamingninja 8 days ago
        > You don't play with chemicals

        How else do you learn?

  • andai 9 days ago
    I read a short story in my youth -- it must have been by Paul Jennings -- about a boy who got bit by a weird bug. His skin turned transparent and he had to go live in a cave.

    Many years go by and he gets bit again and his skin goes back to normal. He finally returns to society, only to find that everyone has gone transparent, and he is once again an outcast...

  • smeej 9 days ago
    I know they say "not tested in humans," but I don't think anybody's going to convince me nobody in the lab tried it out when they thought nobody was looking, unless there's some really obvious (to experts) reason to assume this won't work in humans.
    • bookofjoe 8 days ago
      I was about to submit this Guardian story before it appeared on HN but when I read it was in mice I desisted, since each time I've gone ahead with similar articles/papers, comments immediately came in that it was "in mice."

      For me here that mouse ship has sailed.

    • gus_massa 8 days ago
      It only makes the skin transparent for a particular red wavelength, not all light, the article is overselling it.

      Also, I guess you need a high concentration that is not so easy to remove as described in the article, and I'm worried that a be toxic in high doses.

  • alwa 10 days ago
    I’m surprised that this characteristic of an extremely common dye—being used in its main application, as a dye—hasn’t been described before. Surely there’s some limitation that’s obvious to those skilled in the chemical and biological arts?

    Or is it really just a matter of serendipity waiting til now to lead anybody down the path of trying it this way?

    • qnleigh 9 days ago
      Maybe the concentration has to be high enough that this wouldn't happen often in practice? The point made below about mice having thinner skin makes sense too, though there are parts of the body where skin is quite thin, like ears and wrists.

      I have a feeling that this will get tested by some intrepid YouTuber before the authors of the paper get approval from an ethics review board. I'll try to remember to Google this in a month or two.

      • gadders 9 days ago
        >>The point made below about mice having thinner skin makes sense too, though there are parts of the body where skin is quite thin, like ears and wrists.

        Let's hope no-one gets it on their eyelids.

    • RobotToaster 10 days ago
      Given how common it is, it does seem weird that nobody has spilled it on themselves and noticed this effect.
      • rincebrain 10 days ago
        The article says it's only to the depth it penetrates, so given that you have a lot of skin, comparatively, I'd guess it'd be hard to distinguish from the dye staining you weirdly for a bit.
        • rsynnott 9 days ago
          Also, only specific wavelengths; from the article I don't think this is visible to the naked eye.
        • amy-petrik-214 9 days ago
          on this point curcumin aka tumeric has a quite a similar though not perfectly the same wavelength-adsorption profile (i.e. anything with a strong yellow color)

          tumeric / curcumin is often used a magic skin treatment type dealie. question is why are not all these wanting-to-have-youthful-skin type people discovering transparency! answer is below but TLDR human skin is thicker and doses are still low.

          some main points from the paper( damned paywell, see supplement) > the dye only goes about 1mm deep, so maybe that works magic in a mice but not so good in humans nor noticable. > the dye comes it at arnd 0.5-1 molar solution. gmw is 500 g/mol ish. so 1M solution is 500g in 1L or 0.5g in 1 mL aka 500 mg in 1 mL. Okay, fine, you prepare this and rub 500 mg on your big toe from a little 1 mL aliquot. the daily limit or whatever for the food dye is around 4 mg! Soooo... >on the latter point, safety, the supplement had a bunch of stuff where they were like "we did all the normal blood tests on the mice, and looked at the tissue, and looked to see if they died later, and it all looks good"

      • ckemere 10 days ago
        Makes me want to rub on some Doritos just to see…
        • ashton314 9 days ago
          Sorry lemon juice guy, you really should have rubbed Doritos on your face before robbing all those banks.
  • alentred 9 days ago
    It is fun to imagine how my intestines become transparent every time I drink Fanta and there is no one to see it but the microbes living there. Who probably "freak out" in their own way.
  • _Microft 10 days ago
    Paper: „Achieving optical transparency in live animals with absorbing molecules“, https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adm6869
  • arcticbull 10 days ago
    From the article, the dye is tartrazine -- FD&C Yellow 5 or E102.
    • excalibur 10 days ago
      Okay well getting yellow #5 on your skin definitely doesn't make you invisible.

      Source: Doritos

      • SketchySeaBeast 9 days ago
        Well, there may be something to it - get enough Dorito dust on you and you'll be invisible to the opposite sex.
  • pvaldes 10 days ago
    Never tested on humans

    Some tropical American frogs evolved to do it naturally (fam Centrolenidae). Some fishes also can do it also in a few different orders (Siluriformes and Perciformes at least), so in lower vertebrates it is possible and evolved several times.

    But they have a different metabolism than ours and a mouse skin is much more thin than our own skin. I assume that this effect will work only on very small animals and the optical effect will hit some thickness limit somewhere. Could work on fingers but not in heart. At this moment my hype level is a 4 over 10.

    • jldugger 10 days ago
      > Never tested on humans

      But a few billion have ingested it in the past year, sometimes even in medical pill form to make yellow pills. Could be worse at higher doses but seems plausibly safe and worth further testing.

      • karmajunkie 10 days ago
        The poison, as they say, is in the dose... just speculating but the quantity of dye ingested versus that used to render skin transparent may be such that the former is relatively innocuous while the latter would be very harmful. In particular it seems to be genotoxic at relatively low levels so that would be concerning for use in humans.
        • pvaldes 9 days ago
          I don't recall the case of anybody grabbing a doritos bag and seeing trough their fingers, but a lamp behind your hand definitely can turn your fingers translucent. Maybe with both effects combined?

          The more valuable contribution here is probably the idea IMHO.

          To know that the optical effects of the light can be manipulated with the correct stuff and we could search for it. An ointment seems of to be useful to a restricted volume, to maybe the first millimeters of the skin.

          We evolved totally transparent proteins that are hard, resilient and harmless. We have them in the eyes so we know how to do it. If we could only suggest the body to temporarily accumulate those proteins in the upper layers of the skin, or we could inject temporarily the proteins in local areas of interest that would be awesome (and maybe safe as long as is our own human protein)...

          On the skin the continuous shedding of the upper layers would probably self-fix the stuff.

  • sschueller 10 days ago
    > while smearing it on the rodent’s scalp allowed scientists to see blood vessels in the animal’s brain.

    Since when do mice not have skulls?

    • mattkrause 10 days ago
      Mouse skulls are very thin and you can sometimes image directly through them!
    • griffzhowl 10 days ago
      My thought too but later in the article it says that was by using the dye in combination with laser speckle imaging (whatever that is)
    • Intralexical 9 days ago
      The article says they used laser speckle imaging for the brain test.
    • dylan604 10 days ago
      Everyone knows skulls are transparent in everything except x-rays. It is known
      • janalsncm 10 days ago
        Skulls aren’t transparent in visible light either.
        • ptsneves 9 days ago
          I guess not only are skulls transparent to light but jokes as well. Went right through chuckle
        • lupire 9 days ago
          Dead skulls, sure.

          For live skulls, it's considered white rude to check.

  • sans_souse 9 days ago
    I just got my Doritos dry rub on, followed by a Sunny D Shower, and now nobody can see me.
    • RandomCitizen12 9 days ago
      Don't forget to go to Canada and get some Cheezies
  • ardrak 10 days ago
    > At the moment, transparency is limited to the depth the dye penetrates, but Hong said microneedle patches or injections could deliver the dye more deeply.

    Reverse tattoos incoming.

    • HPsquared 9 days ago
      "Alpha channel" dye.
    • FjordWarden 10 days ago
      Sorry for being nerd, but your internal organs are going to get UV damage.
      • murphyslab 10 days ago
        UV damage to internal tissues seems unlikely given that the tartrazine dye they used absorbs strongly in the UV region of the spectrum. You can see this in Figure S1 A & B:

        https://www.science.org/doi/suppl/10.1126/science.adm6869/su...

        Also the abstract of the article notes that strong UV absorption is likely a prerequisite for this effect:

        > We hypothesized that strongly absorbing molecules can achieve optical transparency in live biological tissues. By applying the Lorentz oscillator model for the dielectric properties of tissue components and absorbing molecules, we predicted that dye molecules with sharp absorption resonances in the near-ultraviolet spectrum (300 to 400 nm) and blue region of the visible spectrum (400 to 500 nm) are effective in raising the real part of the refractive index of the aqueous medium at longer wavelengths when dissolved in water, which is in agreement with the Kramers-Kronig relations. As a result, water-soluble dyes can effectively reduce the RI contrast between water and lipids, leading to optical transparency of live biological tissues.

        https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adm6869

        However this kind of research into the effects of absorption bands on the transmission properties at interfaces might ultimately bring about more effective sunscreen formulations.

      • EvanAnderson 9 days ago
        So that whole "get UV light inside the body to fight COVID" trope could come true? >smile<
    • RobotToaster 10 days ago
      If it dissolves in DMSO, penetration should be vastly improved.
      • trhway 9 days ago
        It is stated to be slightly solvable in DMSO, so that may be already enough. Anyway, i've got the impression - layman from reading some related articles - with DMSO the solubility isn't that important in the sense that DMSO seems to be temporarily increasing physical permeativity of the tissues - kind of creates micropores - so that even some not very soluble stuff can probably get through. I have a small bottle of DMSO at home, wonder if should buy some Doritos on the way home :)
      • beeflet 9 days ago
        What kind of application are you suggesting with DMSO?

        t. chem student

    • BobbyJo 9 days ago
      Your immune system traps and isolates tattoo ink and prevents it from free contact with other tissues, so I don't see that working in practice.
  • moribvndvs 10 days ago
    In Doritos? How are call of duty players not constantly transparent?
    • ThrowawayTestr 10 days ago
      Their skin is transparent but cheeto dust isn't
      • sethammons 9 days ago
        Heh, like the superhero that can only go invisible if nobody is looking
    • justinclift 9 days ago
      Maybe their stomachs have been transparent the entire time, and no-one's realised. ;)
  • teeray 10 days ago
    I’ve seen this movie. It doesn’t end well for Kevin Bacon.
    • carlmr 9 days ago
      6 degrees of Kevin Bacons translucence.
    • mbg721 9 days ago
      Because the Graboids sense sound vibrations rather than sight?
  • billfor 9 days ago
    Some countries have banned it in humans, due to health concerns. https://www.verywellhealth.com/tartrazine-free-diet-83227
  • justinclift 9 days ago
    Wonder if this has potential for internal imaging too?

    For example, with an endoscope or other thing that checks internal passageways. Applying this stuff (or whatever is appropriate to the given organ) could potentially allow the optical visibility of more stuff.

  • skibz 9 days ago
    I'm quite interested in how the use of tartrazine has been regulated around the world.

    In my home country, for example, it's not permitted for use in food. Many other places, however, allow this.

    • nottorp 9 days ago
      Interesting, seems to be banned in at least 4 european countries (if i'm to trust a chatbot).
  • jjkaczor 9 days ago
    Halloween is about to become even more weird...
    • kevindamm 9 days ago
      How long before someone tries to make a tattoo using this as ink?
    • Perenti 8 days ago
      It would be a nice change to see people walking around with their organs out, rather than laying in the gutter or the bottle shop car-park.
    • amelius 9 days ago
      "I need to go to the bathroom."

      "Yes, I can see it."

  • egypturnash 9 days ago
    Huh, I never expected to find out that the Ghouls from Leiber’s Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books were actually plausible.

    (They were perfectly normal medieval fantasy humans, except for their flesh and organs being mostly transparent, so you just saw a pinkish skeleton with a faint shimmer around it.)

  • adamredwoods 10 days ago
    I wonder if this would improve Digital Optical Spectroscopy for cancer detection and monitoring?

    Also related: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/eden-2

  • bookofjoe 8 days ago
    >Achieving optical transparency in live animals with absorbing molecules

    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adm6869

  • azinman2 10 days ago
    Truly wild. This could be an amazing advancement if true and safe!
    • Reason077 10 days ago
      I imagine it could eventually lead to a full invisibility serum, as documented in the classic Kevin Bacon film Hollow Man. Of course, we need to be aware of the side effects (mostly murderous rampaging).
      • spuriouserror31 10 days ago
        > Of course, we need to be aware of the side effects (mostly murderous rampaging).

        Common side effects include rash, constipation, nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, homicidal urges, drowsiness, insomnia, headache, and dry mouth.

        • Unai 9 days ago
          You forgot blindness. If you're transparent, your eyes won't be able to refract light. Which is good if you also have homicidal urges, but awful if you get diarrhea.
          • yencabulator 9 days ago
            And would you get invisible diarrhea?

            (This might be the more desirable of the two outcomes. Otherwise you the man may be invisible, but everyone sees your intestinal contents floating in mid-air.)

      • lazyasciiart 9 days ago
        How would it get into bones? Wouldn’t the likelier outcome be visible animated skeletons, rather than full invisibility?
  • moralestapia 10 days ago
    It says it's never been tested on humans and the proper diligence should follow,

    But given that we already eat large amounts of it with no harmful side effects, the expectations are good.

    • gus_massa 10 days ago
      The dose makes the poison. Considering that food usually don't make your tongue transparent [1], probably you need to use more than the usual amount to get the effect.

      [1] Note that they get skin that is transparent only to one shade of red, it's not transparent to all the visible spectrum.

      • moralestapia 10 days ago
        The absorbed dose makes the poison.

        The effect of a substance is usually three orders of magnitude lower when you rub it on your skin vs. when you swallow it.

        • JumpCrisscross 10 days ago
          > effect of a substance is usually three orders of magnitude lower when you rub it on your skin vs. when you swallow it

          Going out on a limb and guessing you're at an effective dose for something when it's making your skin transparent.

          • fasa99 9 days ago
            (1) "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison."

            (2) assume it isn't absorbed into the larger body. Still the tissue absorbing it got a YUUUUGEEE dose. Then presumably most of it is washed out minutes later. So under that assumption we worry about localized tissue damage ---- --- which, if we're talking about things like cancer patients here who commonly get zapped with X-rays and gamma rays and antimatter and such, is perhaps not out of the ordinary. If there's no systematic damage the main concern would be cancer. If the skin dies, it can be fixed. And heck, a lot of cancer treatments also cause cancer i.e. many children with blood cancers go onto later get other cancers due to the medicinal cure of their blood cancer side effect.

        • unsnap_biceps 10 days ago
          [dead]
    • ryanwhitney 10 days ago
      eh i just put some on the top of my hand and i didn't see any bones
      • pfdietz 10 days ago
        Tim: Look at the bones!
      • DFHippie 10 days ago
        Maybe you should get that hand x-rayed. Is it particularly bendy?
  • dghughes 9 days ago
    Basically reverse sunblock. Ouch! I wonder how light affects internal organs. Skin is meant to be a protective barrier.
    • Traubenfuchs 9 days ago
      Depends on the spectrum! Our insides don‘t care about visible light but long term sunny-day level UV light can not be good for them. This dye seems to be limited to red, visible spectrum, but you‘d need to test that first.
    • devilirium 9 days ago
      I don't think it's particularly bad for them, especially in the short term. In my extended family it's common to use red light therapy, which penetrates into the tissues to help the fight against inflammations, infections. It's also used as a treatment for dry eyes, which I also have. I may be wrong though, maybe common sunlight is more harmful with a translucent skin? Idk, it's interesting though.
  • bdcravens 9 days ago
    Strange dating moment:

    "I really do have a good heart!" (takes off shirt, take out a bottle of dye, and smear it on torso) "See, just look at it!"

  • pvaldes 9 days ago
    <s>Hey Tiktokers, who needs a stupid dye? Show your inner light. Swallow our new gastrosubmarine led pill and shit bright like a diamond.<s/>
  • starkparker 9 days ago
    Some practical VFX artists are gonna go wild with this
  • D-Coder 9 days ago
    The Washington Post's headline for this article is:

    Scientists use food dye found in Doritos to make see-through mice

    My first reaction was, what the heck have I been smoking?

  • freen 10 days ago
    Awesomest Halloween ever.
    • amelius 10 days ago
      "I can tell what you had for dinner"
  • tiahura 9 days ago
    Don’t mice have skulls?
  • rbanffy 9 days ago
    This solves my Halloween costume for this year.
  • swayvil 10 days ago
    Halloween costume!
  • m3kw9 10 days ago
    Can’t wait till it becomes a trend on instagram
  • aster0id 10 days ago
    New kink incoming
  • kragen 9 days ago
    specifically tartrazine in only the red part of the spectrum. can this be real?
  • roshankhan28 9 days ago
    what are we trying to achieve with making skin transparent? I dont see a use case. anyone want to help me with it? please tell me more about it.
    • Lio 9 days ago
      I can think of a use case. The same one we have for modified transparent Zebra Fish in medical research.

      That is so that you can observe features such as the circulatory system.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebrafish#Transparent_adult_bo...

    • dpassens 9 days ago
      In addition to the medical usecases listed in the other comments, it's also just pretty cool.
    • in_a_hole 9 days ago
      Knee hurts, doctor can have a look and literally see what's wrong.
    • BoatyPrint 9 days ago
      Diagnosing some internal illnesses without xray or MRI.
    • diogolsq 9 days ago
      xray can only pick up information up to a level.

      an extra tool(window to our inner bits) without the necessity of making a biopsy is always welcome.

  • wordsinaline 9 days ago
    Anyone want to sell me some tartrazine?
  • seydor 10 days ago
    introspective people eat doritos
  • ImHereToVote 9 days ago
    Imagine this as face cream at a rave.
  • evan_ 10 days ago
    When my little brother was 3 or 4 he stepped on a nail in our yard, probably dropped during some recent construction. It went all the way through his poor little foot, straight through, out the top. I can see it, vividly, in my mind's eye. Mom scooped us up and rushed us, still barefoot, to the ER. I remember him being almost calm- not the way I would have reacted. They x-rayed his foot and soaked it in a tub of what I now know to be iodine to kill bacteria. I remember this clearly: it was the first time I'd ever seen an x-ray in real life, rather than just in alphabet books.

    Fortunately the nail totally missed anything important, so they just pulled it out and bandaged him up- no worse for the wear. He went on to be an honest-to-God track star so it obviously didn't have any lasting effect.

    Decades later we were talking about something and he said to me, "Why don't they use that x-ray water anymore?". I had no idea what he was talking about so I asked him to elaborate.

    The way he remembers the incident is that they put his foot into a bucket of amber liquid and, once submerged, his skin became transparent. He looked in and saw his own bones, blood vessels, and- in the middle of it all- the nail that was causing such a fuss. He described wiggling his toes, flexing his ankle, and seeing the bones and tendons move, directly, with his own eyes.

    His toddler brain, probably in shock, had combined the x-ray film and iodine bath. Over the years it had grown more detailed and reinforced. He described it with such clarity that I almost wondered if I hadn't been mistaken. He didn't believe me when I told him how I remember it. We called our mom who confirmed my version of events, plus did some googling, which finally convinced him.

    Anyway I just sent him this article. It's interesting that not only is the x-ray water he remembers theoretically possible, it would actually be amber.

    • ajb 9 days ago
      That is a fascinating story.

      Historically there were actually "live" x-ray machines, where you could have seen yourself wiggling your toes. They aren't used now due to the horrific exposure to x-rays, but before that was understood to be bad they were used in shoe shops (!). I don't know that they were ever used in hospitals though

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope

      • smeej 9 days ago
        I had a motion x-ray as recently as 2020. I don't know enough about the technology to know why this was different, but I have a copy of the video.

        Edit: This is the type of machine it was: https://www.dmxworks.com/

        • ajb 9 days ago
          That's cool. I wonder how they reduce the dose enough that it's safe. Presumably they were quite careful about how long the exposure was?
          • toast0 9 days ago
            Digital x-ray sensors require a much smaller exposure than film, and I'd guess a lot smaller exposure than a shoe sizer machine, too.

            For multiple exposures in motion, it will add up, but assuming there's a reasonable diagnostic benefit and the total exposure isn't too long, and the staff is well protected, it's a reasonable risk.

          • smeej 9 days ago
            It took several minutes and a couple tries to get the exposure right on certain shots. They didn't seem overly concerned about the exposure. The person operating the machine didn't seem at all worried about it, so I didn't worry either. Can't rule out that I should have!
            • ajb 9 days ago
              These days the machine itself should also warn if it's on too long, so perhaps the operator was relying on that. These days even UV treatment gets added to your record so that further treatments don't accumulate too much. Well, it does in the UK at least.
              • knodi123 9 days ago
                > UV treatment gets added to your record so that further treatments don't accumulate too much

                Which also takes into account how much time you spend outside during daylight hours, right?? That seems like such a large confounding variable that it renders the hospital-side measurement kind of pointless...

      • dredmorbius 9 days ago
        And of course the most harmed by fluoroscopes weren't the customers (bad enough) but the sales staff, who had multiple daily exposures day after week after month after year.

        Checking your Wikipedia link: Yikes! These were used into the 1970s.

        And of course industry denialism of any possible harm the devices might cause....

        SMFH

      • eternauta3k 9 days ago
        Also used for medical research (e.g. back injury research)
    • knodi123 10 days ago
      That's fascinating! I also have a vivid childhood memory that I can see, clear as day, despite knowing as an adult that it's impossible. It's really uncomfortable to combine the facts that a.) memory is unreliable, and b.) memory is what gives me my sense of self.

      (if you don't accept that second fact, that's fine, I'm not here to convince anyone or debate)

    • zackmorris 9 days ago
      I don't know why I'm replying to this other than to add another anecdote about the fungibility of memory.

      I first saw a Macintosh computer around 1984/85 when I was 7 or 8 years old, and I vividly remember the color screen. They were demoing MacPaint or possibly a SuperPaint beta and I recall the palettes being in color. Except Macs at that time were black and white!

      Now I realize that it was probably synesthesia where some of the gray patterns looked blue, yellow, brown or even pink. So basically it was like dreaming and seeing colors which don't exist. Although nearly all of my dreams are in black and white, and I only remember a handful of dreams that had color, like a recent one that had a fruit bowl with all of the colors.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperPaint_(Macintosh)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Color_Classic (hadn't been created yet)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVcv8ORSZEQ Color Macintosh Plus (mod)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slY_F1MxGlk The Mac Plus had modern multi monitor support in 1986 and I got it working! (not me!)

      I'm especially curious about the last link, because there's a remote chance that someone had a Mac Plus with a color video card that I was lucky enough to witness in a rare demo. But the odds of that are pretty slim. Maybe some old graybeard knows of such a thing.

      • FiatLuxDave 9 days ago
        Are you sure it was a Mac and not an Apple ][ ? I believe those had support for color at the time.
        • zackmorris 8 days ago
          Ya I'm positive it was a Mac Plus form factor and not an Apple ][ (cool brackets btw, very nostalgic). And 90% sure that the drawing program was MacPaint, although I can't explain why I remember it being in color.

          -

          While I'm here, I want to link back to an earlier comment I made about synesthesia where patterns look like colors:

          https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40602237

          https://gagadget.com/en/446542-a-photo-of-a-coca-cola-can-th...

          I think this mechanism was at play because I had never seen a dot matrix black and white display before, and thought that the Mac OS checkerboard gray pattern was especially cool. I distinctly remember one of the darker gray patterns appearing blue. So I wonder if my mind filled in the pink/red like in the Coke image. The brick wall and roof tile patterns also stirred my imagination, perhaps triggering a feeling of red.

          I think most people with sight have rod cells which are sensitive to cyan, so I've always wondered if a negative afterimage in low light could simulate red for people with varying degrees of color blindness, technically color shiftedness, since they can see colors like gold/khaki that people with ordinary vision can't see but only see as a secondary mix of red and green light making yellow:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=negative+afterimage (click Images for examples)

          Unfortunately Google broke their search engine so we can't link directly to images anymore, a 1000th reason why it maybe shouldn't exist as a company anymore due to its recent behavior, but I digress:

          https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21530274/format-for-a-ur...

          I also had dozens of concussions growing up feral in the 80s, and I think that may have exacerbated my neurodivergency and ADHD symptoms, giving me endless curiosity. I stumbled onto an article the other day about shroom microdosing possibly regrowing connections between brain cells to treat traumatic brain injury, similar to this one:

          https://jmvfh.utpjournals.press/doi/full/10.3138/jmvfh-2022-...

          So I wonder if psychedelics and exercises to train the visual cortex to discern colors better, combined with various medications that might slightly shift the opsin receptor frequencies in the eye, could improve color discernment for some people.

          As I've gotten older, I've come to realize that our memories and perception of reality itself can change over time, because everything we perceive is actually in our minds. So for example, I had forgotten about the Mac Plus for 30-40 years, but now the memory is more vivid because it's connected to recent thoughts through time.

          It's going to be weird in 10-20 years when something like Neuralink allows us to see without using our eyes. I suspect that we will discover new colors in the ultraviolet and infrared range that birds and insects see that we haven't seen before, as well as new impossible colors like green plus magenta/purple making octarine, the color of magic:

          https://www.colourlovers.com/blog/2008/04/19/octarine-the-im...

          I guess this got long and random, but hey, it's Saturday.

    • nullorempty 9 days ago
      Well, he actually might have been perceiving what otherwise we don't perceive.
  • tampontim 9 days ago
    [flagged]
    • ToucanLoucan 9 days ago
      "Endure" holy shit. Imagine having this much to say about what other people do to their own bodies and being subjected to like... seeing it. For a few seconds. Sometimes. My sincerest condolences sir, it's a wonder you've survived such trials.
  • ranger_danger 9 days ago
    Absorbing anything that ends in -zine into the body does not sound safe.
    • r2_pilot 9 days ago
      I hope you don't have allergies then as you might otherwise be taking cetirizine already.
    • dagurp 9 days ago
      from Wikipedia:

      > Tartrazine is among six artificial colors for which the European Union requires products that contain them to be marked with the statement May have an adverse effect on activity and attention in children.

      > The FDA requires that the Precautions section of prescription drug labels include the warning statement, "This product contains FD&C Yellow No. 5 (tartrazine) which may cause allergic-type reactions (including bronchial asthma) in certain susceptible persons.