Amazon should give the appearance of mild opposition to the rerun, then allow it to happen, agreeing to/under the condition of massive government and media oversight, and likely the union will fail to win a second time by at least 15 points.
(There’s a reason companies don’t leave me in charge of their legal strategy efforts, but I suspect it’s much better for Amazon if the rerun happens. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the union is terrified of having a rerun.)
As much as Amazon sucks, I’m under the impression that the union cannot win a vote. The employees voted against unionizing not because of illegal intimidation, but 1) they knew Amazon would cut jobs and move elsewhere if they succeeded, 2) the condition and pay in Amazon warehouses, though sub-par, is much better then any other job in their area, and 3) these are places with general anti-union sentiment.
If we want to improve conditions for these people, we need to give them better opportunities and education. Right now Amazon is the hand that feeds them, and even if they were to unionize they’d just be the more-regulated hand that feeds them.
> The union specifically alleged that employees were pressured to drop ballots into a mailbox that was in view of Amazon cameras.
So having a United States Postal Service mailbox in an easy access location is grounds for revote? How would Amazon know how people voted? Were the ballots like postcards?
As I understand it, it was a mailbox installed at Amazon's insistence under very specific conditions. It looked thoroughly dodgy through and through, though of course legally was probably kosher. Amazon aren't dumb, and they have good lawyers.
If Amazon is confident the last election was fair, they would presumably see the current push as procedural nonsense designed to stop them from winning, and would be concerned that more redos just mean more opportunities for trickery. Would you feel the same way if it were Amazon calling for a do-over after a union victory?
There's an asymmetry of power here though. Amazon, had they lost the vote to the union, asking for a redo would be suspect. But because Amazon has the appearance of all the power and control should welcome redos.
I don't really see the asymmetry. The union campaign was run by a 60,000 member affiliate of the AFL-CIO, supported by multiple Senators, and arguably (he was vague about it) by the President of the United States. We could focus on Amazon's greater power to influence workplace conditions around the election, or the union's greater experience and pull with the NLRB. But really, the bottom line should be, both sides are large and powerful enough to meaningfully worry about the other side playing tricks.
Amazon doesn't have a constitution governing exactly when it can and can't have an election.
That said, with Biden's approval ratings as high as they are, it would probably be in the Dems' favor if they could get an early election before the GOP state legislatures manage to implement all their gerrymandering and voter suppression bills.
> Amazon doesn't have a constitution governing exactly when it can and can't have an election.
Fair point, but I fail to see how it's not a situation of "let's have a rerun because I didn't get my preferred outcome". Case in point: if the vote was 70-30 in favor of the union, how much support will there be for a rerun?
His NET approval rating (Approval - Dissaproval) is +8 which is pretty good for the current era of American Presidents.
I literally have no idea what would have to happen for a President to get a 65%+ approval or a net of +20 in this day and age. There would need to be a complete recalibration of the parties.
And Maricopa County, AZ should comply with the subpoenas issued by election auditors... unless they're hiding something. This isn't the way people with nothing to hide respond to subpoenas:
> the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors responded to the subpoena with a letter stating they have already provided much of what has been asked of them in subpoenas filed at the beginning of this year and late last year.
> They also stated that some of the materials that have been requested are in the custody of the recorder's office, which was not named in the subpoena, according to the Republic.
> "Specifically, providing these routers puts sensitive, confidential data belonging to Maricopa County citizens - including Social Security numbers and protected health information - at risk," Thomas Liddy, civil division chief for the county attorney's office, wrote.
None of this seems unreasonable to me. An aside, but I'd think a tech forum like HN would be interested in a more critical examination of the conspiracy theory around internet routers containing proof of electoral fraud. Every angle I've read on it sounds like utter nonsense. Let's not pretend it's anything other than a fishing expedition aimed at sowing doubt in voters minds.
I've tried to go over this with my dad and uncles a few times, they're all IT professionals.
The theory is essentially that the machines weren't properly secured, they cite some provision of AZ election law that I don't recall precisely which states that if the machines aren't air-gapped the election is invalid and must be rerun.
They think the routers are the proof that the rules were broken and thus will force a revote. When pressed they never can really articulate a specific theory of fraud, just that the rules were broken and they're upset when the rules were broken and their guy lost.
> some provision of AZ election law that I don't recall precisely which states that if the machines aren't air-gapped the election is invalid and must be rerun
So, we don't need to follow the law?
The law is merely advisory and doesn't require our adherence?
Would you be this unaffected by violations of the law if your guy hadn't won?
> This is false. Maricopa County uses an air-gapped system, meaning its tabulation equipment is never connected to the internet and is completely separated from the Maricopa County network. There are no routers connected to the system and there never have been.
> Two separate federally certified Voting System Testing Laboratories independently confirmed that the system is not connected to the internet. In February 2021, they tested the equipment and found no evidence of internet connectivity. The firms also confirmed that there was not any malicious software or hardware installed on the tabulation equipment.
Can we cut it out with the "your guy" stuff? A baseless conspiracy theory is a baseless conspiracy theory no matter which political candidate you support.
In this instance there is no evidence that any law has been broken. Requesting the routers is a fishing expedition based on zero evidence. The equipment has already been tested and proven to not be connected to the internet, if they turn over the routers then "stop the steal" activists will say the hacks are actually hidden in the ethernet cables, or something. This is not an investigation based on facts, it is an attempt to confuse and sow doubt.
Having the router connected to the internet might be against the law, but refusing a request to turn over routers is not a violation of the law.
Do you honestly believe anyone is going to arrest the county board of supervisors?
What do you believe will happen to remedy this?
I'm all for enforcing the law, but I recognize that local authorities are essentially unaccountable to the rest of the nation. I assume that the residents of Maricopa county either support the outcome, are unable or unwilling to change it, or do not care about our civic processes.
How does providing a router put SSNs and health information at risk? Is the county transmitting that information without TLS? Then it's already at risk.
Would you provide your physical home router to me for an “audit”? I promise not to do anything with it and you can be assured you can continue using it afterwards with no worries about your security.
I imagine Maricopa county has no interest in throwing away all these routers and buying new ones. This is on top of the disruption of service that providing the physical routers will cause.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28043724 (190 points/73 comments)
(There’s a reason companies don’t leave me in charge of their legal strategy efforts, but I suspect it’s much better for Amazon if the rerun happens. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the union is terrified of having a rerun.)
If we want to improve conditions for these people, we need to give them better opportunities and education. Right now Amazon is the hand that feeds them, and even if they were to unionize they’d just be the more-regulated hand that feeds them.
So having a United States Postal Service mailbox in an easy access location is grounds for revote? How would Amazon know how people voted? Were the ballots like postcards?
That said, with Biden's approval ratings as high as they are, it would probably be in the Dems' favor if they could get an early election before the GOP state legislatures manage to implement all their gerrymandering and voter suppression bills.
Fair point, but I fail to see how it's not a situation of "let's have a rerun because I didn't get my preferred outcome". Case in point: if the vote was 70-30 in favor of the union, how much support will there be for a rerun?
This is all off-topic, but in the interest of accuracy: according to 538's average of polls, Biden's approval rating is not that high, just 51%.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/
I literally have no idea what would have to happen for a President to get a 65%+ approval or a net of +20 in this day and age. There would need to be a complete recalibration of the parties.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/dominion-maricopa-co...
> They also stated that some of the materials that have been requested are in the custody of the recorder's office, which was not named in the subpoena, according to the Republic.
> "Specifically, providing these routers puts sensitive, confidential data belonging to Maricopa County citizens - including Social Security numbers and protected health information - at risk," Thomas Liddy, civil division chief for the county attorney's office, wrote.
None of this seems unreasonable to me. An aside, but I'd think a tech forum like HN would be interested in a more critical examination of the conspiracy theory around internet routers containing proof of electoral fraud. Every angle I've read on it sounds like utter nonsense. Let's not pretend it's anything other than a fishing expedition aimed at sowing doubt in voters minds.
The theory is essentially that the machines weren't properly secured, they cite some provision of AZ election law that I don't recall precisely which states that if the machines aren't air-gapped the election is invalid and must be rerun.
They think the routers are the proof that the rules were broken and thus will force a revote. When pressed they never can really articulate a specific theory of fraud, just that the rules were broken and they're upset when the rules were broken and their guy lost.
So, we don't need to follow the law?
The law is merely advisory and doesn't require our adherence?
Would you be this unaffected by violations of the law if your guy hadn't won?
https://recorder.maricopa.gov/justthefacts/
> This is false. Maricopa County uses an air-gapped system, meaning its tabulation equipment is never connected to the internet and is completely separated from the Maricopa County network. There are no routers connected to the system and there never have been.
> Two separate federally certified Voting System Testing Laboratories independently confirmed that the system is not connected to the internet. In February 2021, they tested the equipment and found no evidence of internet connectivity. The firms also confirmed that there was not any malicious software or hardware installed on the tabulation equipment.
Audit results: https://www.maricopa.gov/5681/Elections-Equipment-Audit#Resu...
This was literally 1 minute of Googling by the way.
In this instance there is no evidence that any law has been broken. Requesting the routers is a fishing expedition based on zero evidence. The equipment has already been tested and proven to not be connected to the internet, if they turn over the routers then "stop the steal" activists will say the hacks are actually hidden in the ethernet cables, or something. This is not an investigation based on facts, it is an attempt to confuse and sow doubt.
Having the router connected to the internet might be against the law, but refusing a request to turn over routers is not a violation of the law.
What do you believe will happen to remedy this?
I'm all for enforcing the law, but I recognize that local authorities are essentially unaccountable to the rest of the nation. I assume that the residents of Maricopa county either support the outcome, are unable or unwilling to change it, or do not care about our civic processes.
I imagine Maricopa county has no interest in throwing away all these routers and buying new ones. This is on top of the disruption of service that providing the physical routers will cause.
The whole letter is worth a read by the way:
https://www.maricopa.gov/DocumentCenter/View/70435/Final-Sig...